First, Dalal Elsheikh joins to discuss her career in automotive vehicle user experience design, her insights on the automotive industry and the future of mobility. Then, are e-Readers still relevant? Amazon just introduced the next generation of its Kindle e-Readers; we talk about their features, and what place e-Readers have in today's product world. And we'll end with a discussion on post-lockdown back-to-work style. Lululemon conducted a survey that found people who have worked from home for the past many months are hoping to shift their back-to-office attire to more comfortable styles. So what is office attire these days?
The future of mobility and "living rooms on wheels," plus: we ponder whether e-Readers are still relevant and discuss what to wear to the office these days.
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Nick Caruso:
This is The Gear Patrol Podcast for Friday, September 24, 2021. I'm Nick Caruso. Today, we're going to be talking with a special guest about her work in autonomous vehicle design, and her insights on the industry, and also the future of mobility. Then, we'll move on the question, are E-readers still relevant? Amazon just this week introduced the next generation of its Kindle E-readers, which we're all very familiar with, of course, and we're going to talk about those features and what's new there, but also more generally, what place E-readers, like the Kindle, have in today's product world, product culture, if you will? We'll end our discussion on post-lockdown back-to-work style. This is inspired by a survey that Lululemon conducted that found that people who have worked from home for the past many months are shifting to their ... Or hoping rather, to shift their back-to-office attire to this more comfortable style rather than the more proper stuff we were used to coming out of the pre-pandemic era. So, we'll discuss what office attire actually is these days.
Nick Caruso:
So, all of that in a second, but first let me welcome today's podcast people, starting with that special guest I mentioned. Joining us today is a new friend of mine named Dalal Elsheikh, who works for Ford as an advanced autonomous vehicle designer and she specifically works in user experience. Dalal, a very warm welcome to The Gear Patrol Podcast and thanks for joining from the west coast.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Thank you so much for having me, Nick. It's an honor to be here.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, we're going to have a good conversation. The third wing of our three ... I don't even know if it's a wing. I don't know, the third person of three is a friend of mine, much longer, Tyler Duffy, our staff writer covering all things automotive. He's on the line from Detroit, Rock City, so hello Tyler.
Tyler Duffy:
Hi Nick. Great to be here. Thank you for having me as a third wheel.
Nick Caruso:
Of course. Like I said, Dalal, you and I met earlier this summer, so I know some light details about your life and you mentioned just before we started recording here what I was about to say, which is that you are facing an impending move to Tyler's hometown Detroit. This position with Ford is relatively new, so you're moving to Detroit to take up the mantle. I'm proud to introduce future neighbors to each other.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Thank you, I'm super excited. I move out there next Friday. Just in time for fall, so that's fun.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah.
Tyler Duffy:
Yeah, in about two weeks, it'll be an experience.
Dalal Elsheikh:
I miss it. I'm originally from New Jersey so I miss that. I miss seasons honestly.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. I've spend time. .. I'm from Michigan, our listeners will know that, you both know that, but I spent a lot of time on the west coast and that's something that's crushed me with anxiety when I think about it. I was like the leaves never change, there aren't leaves. I'm like what the hell's going to happen out here?
Dalal Elsheikh:
We get flowers though, that's nice.
Nick Caruso:
That's true, you do have-
Dalal Elsheikh:
Trees with flowers.
Nick Caruso:
Everyone loves a flower. Actually, I might pull this up. Tyler alluded to this just before we started, but my mother just a few minutes ago texted me quote, "The weatherman just said that west Michigan has the coldest temperatures in the continental US," so that's a few hours away from where you're going to moving, but that's what you're in for.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh God, all I can think of is my pending electricity bill.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, if you get electric heat, good luck. Well, let's get started with our first segment. We're talking about you moving to really begin this work in earnest, a more closer proximity, so we've got some questions for you about your career, your thoughts on the industry, and just autonomous technology in general, but I wonder if you could start with filling us in about your background, and what you do currently, and how you came to pursue this specific line of work?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, of course. We'll have to start with my undergraduate degree, which was actually in industrial design. I started off doing physical products, always knew that cars were my favorite of those physical products. I've always been obsessed with anything that alluded to speed, cars and sneakers being two of those things. I took what we're calling a gap year between undergrad and grad school, but it was really just a year of struggling to find work in New York. Then went to Art Center College of Design out here in Pasadena, got my master's degree in transportation systems and design. If anyone's familiar with that school, what they're really known for is their undergraduate program. They pump out a lot of really talented automotive designers, really traditional automotive designers. We kind of have a pretty established pipeline from Art Center to the automotive world, so that's how I got into Ford or D-Ford specifically, which is our autonomy wing. Now, I work on the user experience of a few of the vehicles that we're working on currently.
Nick Caruso:
Great. What is the D? Does that stand for something?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Design Ford, very cleverly.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. Well, it could have gone Detroit, it could have gone-
Dalal Elsheikh:
Well, it's actually ... Their headquarters is not even in Detroit, they're actually mainly based out of Palo Alto.
Nick Caruso:
Oh, well that makes sense. I didn't know that, yeah.
Tyler Duffy:
Are you going to be in Dearborn in Ford or the cool people who get to go to the downtown Detroit?
Dalal Elsheikh:
No, we're for sure the cool people of downtown Detroit. We're actually going to be in Corktown. Pretty smalls space, they call it The Factory.
Nick Caruso:
I don't actually remember. I know we've talked about this when we met, but you're not going to be in the old train station right or are you?
Dalal Elsheikh:
No, I believe they're still working on that, but no. We are in a three floor building, it's actually pretty small, but it's not too far away from that Michigan Train Station.
Tyler Duffy:
Yeah, Corktown is right there, yeah.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, what I know about Corktown is ... Tyler do you know, is it Mudgie's?
Dalal Elsheikh:
What's that?
Tyler Duffy:
Yep, I believe that's there, yeah, a restaurant.
Nick Caruso:
Oh my God, it's a sandwich place. If you like sandwiches in a big delicious beautiful sandwiches, Mudgie's.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh gosh.
Nick Caruso:
I think they have a sandwich called the Pudgy Mudgie or something like that that's just great.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh, love it. When we get back to the office, that'll be my lunch, my first lunch.
Nick Caruso:
There you go. That's really cool. Yeah, so you mentioned the Art Center College of Design up there in Pasadena. So, you and I met during Monterey Car Week and we were at a lot of the same events together. At one of them, The Quail, which is this big, cool enthusiast driven car show basically, at the Quail Lodge, the Art Center had a booth there and they had one of their concepts out front, a Lincoln concept, it was really spectacular.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, what a special year to have gone. I think that's the first time they've done that. Don't quote me on this, but it might be the first time any school has really built a one-to-one scale of a student project, so that was pretty incredible. For it to also be a Ford, I thought that was pretty funny.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, definitely. No, it's a striking thing. I don't know, Tyler, if you saw photos of that, it's kind of like Continental-esque... I don't remember what it was called, I should have brought that up.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh, that's a good question. I also forgot. Shame on me.
Nick Caruso:
We'll have to figure it out, but yeah, the story about that was really great. So, your education must have been fascinating. Why did you like ... So, you said speed, but why cars specifically?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Well, okay, everyone asks me this question and I feel like I haven't nailed down a beautiful succinct answer yet, but I think it's twofold. One is I always loved the idea of driving for some reason. When I was a kid and playing video games super young, those were the only video games I ever wanted to play. The second part of that I think is because ... I didn't realize this until I was older. My dad has always in the automotive space from a different angle. He owns a medical transportation logistics company, so he was always buying cars, working on cars. We always had extra cars parked in our driveway. So, I think that also had something to do with it.
Nick Caruso:
Well, you can't leave us hanging.
Dalal Elsheikh:
If I were to guess.
Nick Caruso:
It seems relevant. What kind of cars?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh, nothing exciting. Medical transportation is generally a bunch of minivans.
Nick Caruso:
Okay, minivans. That's fine.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, so nothing too exciting.
Nick Caruso:
There are some cool minivans in history.
Dalal Elsheikh:
I won't knock minivans, they're awesome.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. So your concentration in your work is in user experience. So, can you zero us in on what that means? Let's see, you work in future mobility, autonomous vehicles are that path, but what does UX mean in that circle?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right. The user experiences, as we think of it is ... It starts off even before you actually see the vehicle. It starts from how you even gain awareness that this vehicle or this service exists, all the way up to your first, second, third read, which is as you approach the vehicle. What your first thoughts are, what your first experiences are. It even exists on your mobile device. If it's some kind of ride share, ride hailing service, how do you call onto that vehicle. All the way to, how do you open the door. What does it feel like, look like, smell like when you step into the vehicle? When you sit down, what kinds of settings are you exploring, what kind of touchpoints and pain points are you going through when you're driving, or in the backseat caring for a child, or picking someone up, et cetera?
Nick Caruso:
That's phenomenal. I mean, we think of UX particular because we cover tech all the time. We think about it literally that the operating system or just a couple buttons on a phone and you're talking about literally the experience of these cars.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, and you'll find that there are UX designers who do things that are much more granular, where they are doing something that coincides a lot more closely with maybe development. So, they're working with the actual pixels and images that are going on a screen or something. So, they're working on a much smaller scale, but still the same amount of issues, the same amount of questions to solve.
Nick Caruso:
Right. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Tyler, you've shared ... I'm not sure I'm even going to put you on the spot here, but you've shared plenty of critiques of vehicle experience over the years, honestly, but certainly at your time with Gear Patrol, so maybe you can offer some construction feedback for Ford.
Dalal Elsheikh:
I'd love to hear it.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, that Dalal can take back to work.
Tyler Duffy:
Well, I could talk about my experience with the Volkswagen ID.4 and I'm not sure anybody's actually used that before it went into production. Just basically, you'll be working with autonomous vehicles and obviously the major different with those is that the primary user of that is not going to be driving. I guess, how do you ... What sort of things are you going to be looking at changing?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, so because we don't have a driver anymore, now the focus is mainly on the passengers. Again, it's the experience of how do you even find the vehicle? If this vehicle is driving itself around trying to find you, what does that experience look like? What's the experience of multiple groups of people, different types of groups, those different social relationships and how they employee this new space that's now been opened up because you don't have this driver anymore. Then, you're also not just thinking about moving people, you're also thinking about moving cargo. You're thinking about these larger companies that have now really gained a lot of popularity during COVID, which is things like food delivery. How does that work now that we don't need a driver anymore? Things like that.
Nick Caruso:
How interesting.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah.
Nick Caruso:
Kind of like ... I'm picturing, you know those old, like in the maybe '40s, but '50s, the automat where you could go and push a button and there was food on a shelf that would open. Maybe we can combine the minivan idea with the sliding door, open it up, and there's the food in cubicles.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Honestly, you're not far off from what a lot of people have been developing.
Nick Caruso:
Nice. Well, put in a good word for me over there, maybe I'll join you.
Dalal Elsheikh:
You got it.
Nick Caruso:
We can have lunch at Mudgie's. Mudgie's automat. So, what does that mean ... So, let's talk about passenger experience then. There have been theories about autonomous vehicles will be like inside. We've seen concepts many times. What always comes to mind for me is that this is kind of like a ... Now instead of a vehicle with seats facing the same way, where we're all strapped in, this is more of a secure moving room. Is that accurate? Are we going to see card tables pop up in the middle of autonomous cars, and TV's, and stuff? What's the deal?
Dalal Elsheikh:
I mean, again, you're not far off. What's funny is a lot of these ideas that people are coming up with, like table in the middle of the car, TV, or something, these are things that we've already been doing. We've been doing them in minivans. I forget the vehicle that has the table in the back of it and how many cars have screens on the back of the headrests. These things aren't far off. So, yeah, you're not wrong. It's a really interesting time because it's almost like Sci-Fi. We get to imagine all these things and then of course, the government gets to shut us down, tell us that's not legal, but yeah.
Nick Caruso:
What's you're dream ... If you could do anything, if the government weren't breathing down your back, what would you want to ... What kind of experience, maybe a physical experience, would you want inside an ideal autonomous car, or is that not a fair question?
Dalal Elsheikh:
That si not a fair question. I will say, you mentioned it's basically like a moving room. I have heard, and this is even before my time at Ford, that companies have sometimes referred to their autonomous vehicles as essentially a moving hotel room. That they want to change the way that we do long road trips. Rather than having to stop off at a hotel, or a motel, or something, that vehicle itself becomes your family hotel. Kind of like a RV just, I guess, sexier, if you will.
Nick Caruso:
Right. Everybody's wanted a sexier RV.
Dalal Elsheikh:
There we go. That's all the consumers have been asking for.
Nick Caruso:
You could put that on LinkedIn as your description. I help design sexier RVs. So, I want to ... I had shared a link with you both. Tyler, I know you were very familiar with it because you actually wrote the piece, but it's about autonomy and when we can expect to see what we're referring to here as autonomous cars, which is fully autonomous. This is what I was alluding to earlier, you both know ... I know some, you both know plenty enough to correct me on this, but for listeners who aren't up to speed, there are up to five ... There are five levels? I guess it's six levels of autonomy. There's zero to five. Zero being no assistance. My Jeep Cherokee is a level zero car. I have to get in, steer, brake, shift, all that stuff.
Dalal Elsheikh:
You don't have cruise control?
Nick Caruso:
Oh no, that's a good point. I'm a level one then, right? Wow, I just barely made the grade.
Dalal Elsheikh:
There you go.
Nick Caruso:
Okay, so zero would be literally nothing that assists you, a very manual car. So, one is where I'm at. Then, we're talking about level five, which means it is fully self driving in every condition. There are no steering wheels, there are no break pedals and such. Is that correct and Tyler's point in his piece was that this is very far away, so what kind of timeframe are we working with here, from your perspective?
Dalal Elsheikh:
From my perspective?
Nick Caruso:
Yeah.
Dalal Elsheikh:
I have no idea, couldn't tell you, no clue. It's really all about what legality will allow us to do. The technology is there, we can make the cars do it. The engineers can make the cars do it, it's a matter of whether our society is there yet.
Nick Caruso:
Succinctly put. Tyler, what is ... You've predicted many times, like in this post, you talked about when you might see cars on the road. What have you heard from other industry contacts, and other posts, and stories you've done?
Tyler Duffy:
I mean, at least from what I've heard, I think the focus is probably level four where it's not complete autonomy, but it works within a geo-fenced area. So, there's no driver input, but it would be something like the geo-fenced area as a city and then you have a ride sharing service within the city or the geo-fenced areas is a highway and you have trucks going along the highway, that sort of thing. So, I think that ... Fleets and things like that is where you're going to see this within the next few years. At least, from what I've heard, there's varying estimates of when level five would happen, if it happens. That would be much farther away. It's probably encouraging that Ford is hiring people to work on user experience, which implies that they're going to be users of this technology in the near future, I would assume.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. Dalal, we're talking about users now, who is the user? How do you conceive of the person? When we talk about editorial stuff, we always picture out reader and we assign demographics to them, all that sort of things. It's just what every industry does. So, what's your work there like?
Dalal Elsheikh:
So, that is such a big question that we actually have people dedicated to figuring that out for us. Ideally, the user is everyone. Ideally, when you develop a vehicle, you want it to be as accessible as possible, especially if it's something that's going to be part of a service. So, we do have teams over at Ford, especially at D-Ford, who are really looking at accessibility and equity in these communities. So, the short answer is everybody.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, that's the goal right, eventually everybody. We're careening toward a major automotive revolution again, which must be ... You're right on the forefront, what does that feel like to be literally on the leading edge of a massive paradigm shift in human culture?
Dalal Elsheikh:
I cannot think about it like that because I would literally not get anything done. I'm just so thankful that I sit on the shoulders of giants and that I have great leadership that can help us break down these giant questions and just step by step answer them day by say. You know what I mean? So, I couldn't even answer that if I tried.
Nick Caruso:
That's fair. I mean, it is really impressive. I could keep going, I have many more questions on my list. Tyler, I don't want to step on your toes. I'm sure you're curious about one thing or another, so I'm going to give you the opportunity to ask a question now.
Tyler Duffy:
Sure, we've been talking about ride sharing as the user experience here, but do you think this is something that I'm ever ... Is it ever going to end up in a private vehicle, not just somebody's $200,000 super Mercedes that can do everything? Is this something that's actually going to be relevant to people buying cars or are we going to need cars when this technology exists? How do you see this going?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, that's a great question. Personally, I don't know. I also wonder if that's even the goal at all, to have autonomous vehicles privately owned because if we have autonomous vehicles and you don't need to drive them, would it ... I'm not posing that this is a solution, but just a question. Would it be the most equitable, the most ethical, to just use them as public transportation where we're all sharing mobility and moving away from private ownership, at least in a utility sense, not necessarily in a recreational sense? Although, I don't really know how you would use an autonomous vehicle recreationally really I'm sure we could think of some things. I assume that there will be a day, I just don't know when.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, that seems to be what we're thinking about. The Jetson's isn't all that far off, just things are going to be on the road instead of in the air. I think recreationally-
Dalal Elsheikh:
Could be in the air as well.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, that's true. I know you're not allowed to tell us everything you're working on at Ford, maybe there's some other layers to this.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Well, I will say we've seen, what is it Uber Lift or Uber Air rather. I just combined two companies together. Uber Air where they're trying to do those quad copters as transportation. So, I mean, these things are happening.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, for sure. Talking about recreational use for autonomous cars, I would ... I mean, how great would it be to just be able to hop in a big moving living room and cross country road trip to California or something. That would be great.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, but then the question becomes, do you necessarily need to do it by yourself? Couldn't you hop on an autonomous vehicle with a bunch of people who wanted to road trip across California?
Nick Caruso:
Oh, it's going to be a group. I'm going to take my whole group with me, but I would ... Yeah, I'd link up with other people when I go for a trip. Be like planes, trains, and automobiles, but just moving living room, moving living room, and moving living room.
Dalal Elsheikh:
There you go.
Nick Caruso:
So, you mentioned equity a couple times and you and I have spoke about this offline a day or so ago. Something that jumps out to me, largely as someone who's just followed the automotive industry for decades now and still does very closely of work, is that the industry is kind of like overrun with this old school, boy's club mentality in a lot of ways. There are just a lot of men in the field, so I wonder what's-
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yes, it's for sure a boy's club.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, I mean, no joke. It's just men all the way down. So, I wonder what it's like ... You're on the bleeding edge of the technology revolution, but what is it like right now in our day and age being in that environment and is there ... Can you give us good news about equity in the automotive industry and your take there?
Dalal Elsheikh:
It is a work in progress, for sure. I am still one of the very few women that I've seen at D-Ford a even fewer Black people that I've seen at D-Ford. Although there is a lot of work being done around, how do we bring equitable transportation to the communities and I think a lot of companies are working on this too, how do we output equitable products? There's a lot of work also being done internally too. How do we make our workforce better represent the people that we are striving to aid, you know what I mean? It's not just a Ford problem, like you mentioned, it's an everywhere problem, outside of just transportation, although transportation has been so historically white and male. Yeah, it's a work in progress, for sure.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, you were talking about the communities and the people, the users who will be using these vehicles. Public transit is the utopian ideal of equity, that's transportation equity. Do you ... How much of your experience do you bring to this work? How much do you get to understand or intake data from the communities that inform the work? What's your experience there?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, so unfortunately there is a lot of information that I get to give them from first hand experience about safety and just being a woman trying to use the kinds of services that we might be designing. So, I've had the experience of being in a group discussion where I've had to use a first hand experience to explain to someone ... I'm sorry I'm being so vague. To explain to someone how maybe the design concept that they're proposing won't work, won't work for someone of my demographic. So, there is sometimes, some shortsightedness, but it's not their fault. You only have the experience that you have, but I guess I feel lucky, I feel very fortunate, to be a Black woman at the table when these discussions are coming up.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, the industry's fortunate to have new voices as part of it. Nothing changes, nothing moves forward without welcoming new voices into the conversation. So, like I said a minute ago, I've taken up a lot of this bandwidth here, but what should we know about the future of mobility? I think it's a ... A lot of people are dubious of the idea of getting into a moving living room or ceding control to the car on a highway or whatever. That and beyond, what should we know? What might people not be thinking about when they think about mobility?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Well, I would actually flip that and say, it's not so much what the people should know, it's actually what these companies need to know. So, right now a lot of the research and development that we're doing actually comes the people that we're interviewing, the people that we're talking to who have used these mobility systems, whether they're autonomy, or public transportation, or ride tail and ride share services. I would say, no pun intended, but don't be a passenger in this experience. Participate when these mobility companies are putting out work, let your voice be heard, talk shit if you feel like the product doesn't make any sense or it's not serving the community that they say that they're serving. A lot of times these design organizations or these companies will do this design speak, this marketing talk, and make it sound like they're doing something amazing and incredible, but it can be just a weighted mask, a whole lot of nonsense. So, just participate and participate vigorously.
Nick Caruso:
That's such cool advice. That's kind of what we were speaking about a minute ago. We're on the verge of an entirely knew frontier in transportation and there really is an opportunity to help shape that because we're the ones using the stuff.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, exactly. If people don't complain, how will the designers know that they didn't make a fantastic product?
Nick Caruso:
That's right. Tyler, have you kept a list of all your complaints that you can just forward along?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Listen, you can just forward them over. I would love to see them.
Nick Caruso:
Any top ones we need to air right now, Tyler? That you want to make sure people hear.
Tyler Duffy:
Not exactly. I'd like to hear the safety of this discussed a bit more because obviously Elon Musk at Tesla, because he's a celebrity billionaire, dominates the conversation about autonomous driving, even though your Tesla does not drive itself, even though it has autopilot. We hear glib thing like, oh, it's going to be 10 times as safe or whatever, but if it's 10 times as safe and we're only killing 4,000 people instead of 40,000 people, yes, that's a net benefit, but it's also ... Nobody's going to accept autonomous driving if it's killing 4,000 people a year. So, I'd like to ... I think sometimes it's hard for the tech world to communicate what's going on English to actual people. So, I'm hoping that happens a little bit more in the build up to this.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, that's so true. I would actually say, a lot of the danger of that kind of autopilot stuff really does come from the way that we communicate it. I should have mentioned this a little bit earlier, Nick, when you were talking about the five or six levels of autonomy. The problem is that we're trying to put these names and labels on things, where Tesla, we're calling it this whatever level of autonomous driving, but it's not autonomous driving. You still have to be an active participant, as a driver, and pay attention to the road, and hold onto the steering wheel. It'll give you an alert and let you know that you need to actually put pressure on the steering wheel and make sure that you're paying attention.
Dalal Elsheikh:
We'll see some vehicles have these sensors to watch your irises, your pupils, and make sure your eyes are actually on the road while you're driving because people will just assume that the technology will keep them safe or do what it needs to do when it's just not there yet. It's legally not allowed to be there yet. So, a lot of the ways that we communicate things, like you said, in English, or in these marketing terms, or whatever, it's just not accurate.
Nick Caruso:
Right, largely right now we're experiencing semi-autonomous driving or maybe assisted driving.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, assisted, right.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, not responsibility free driving.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right.
Nick Caruso:
Well, that's a good point from Tyler. I know he's going to keep covering that kind of stuff and no doubt that's a big consideration as you move through your work. Any closing words? You're moving to Detroit in a week, you want ... We should ask listeners if they have any suggestions for you for restaurants or anything, they should write in and tell us, for one.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yes, please. I'll be in downtown, so let me know.
Nick Caruso:
All right, perfect. Well, that's a very ... Obviously we've spoken for several minutes, but it's still just barely scratches the surface of the topic, but even your brief insights have been really great to listen to and good thought starters for future conversations. So, thank you for all of ... Answering all our questions and fielding them.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Of course, thank you so much.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. But, let's ... You're going to stick around and we're going to talk about a couple other stories that are in the news right now. You're career experience and perspective are going to play into this very much. So, the second story we're going to be talking about is that new Amazon Kindle's have been revealed. So, the Kindle lineup is, as we know, this gold standard of E-ink, E-readers. Amazon just introduced the first new Kindle Paperwhite, which is a version of their Kindle. First one in three years. Compared to the previous version, it's better, of course. It's $139, but features a bigger display, the display's brighter, you can shift the color temperature of the display, but really notable is that there's a USBC charging port, and a faster processor, and vastly superior battery life. They're adding something like weeks to the battery life.
Nick Caruso:
Tyler, I'm going to start with you since we let you off the hook a lot so far and because I know you're a pretty prolific reader. I think you used to at least use a Kindle. I feel like you always had a Kindle with you when we were hanging out in New York.
Tyler Duffy:
Yeah, I've had once since whenever they debuted and my entire family independently bought them for each other for Christmas. So, I've been using them for a while.
Nick Caruso:
That's great.
Dalal Elsheikh:
I love that.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, that's good.
Dalal Elsheikh:
A Christmas party where everyone opens up a Kindle, I love that.
Tyler Duffy:
That's pretty much what happened, both sides of the family.
Nick Caruso:
So, you still use a Kindle and what do you think about E-reader relevance today, especially when we have so many other options?
Tyler Duffy:
Well, I think ... I guess I can talk about how I use it. I think it's got ... The Kindle, in particular, it's got two big strengths. One is, it's just portable and the Paperwhite, I believe, you can fit it in your pocket. I do a lot of traveling, so I can just throw it in my bag and have a large library at my disposal. The other thing is, it's not an iPad. It's not as distracting, I can't get bogged down Googling things, getting distracted, all the things that would be detrimental to reading. At the same time, I find reading on a Kindle, it's harder to absorb things. If you're trying to read anything intellectual or anything it's hard to get it ... Have things stick or remember things. So, I find myself in the more recent years gravitating to physical books.
Tyler Duffy:
It seems like every upgrade ... It seems like with the Kindle we're in the ... It's like the iPhone with the development where it's, okay, the new iPhone's here and it has a better camera, and a little bit better battery life, but it doesn't seem like we're making ground breaking shift in the technology or that Amazon's really motivated to do that.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, we just talked about that last week on the podcast with the new Apple products that were announced. Henry was joking that it's always, basically this is 20% better than the last one in every way. Hard to break new ground with technology unless, I guess, you're designing autonomous vehicles. Dalal, what's your take on new Kindles here and E-readers in 2021?
Dalal Elsheikh:
I actually have not seen a Kindle in a very long time, but I'm a physical book person. I like to have a book, I like to feel the paper, I don't know why. I think it's also partially just because I want you to come into my house, see my bookshelf, and go, wow, you've read all these books, you're so smart. You can't really brag with a Kindle, you know what I mean?
Nick Caruso:
Want to check out my library, my digital library, want to look at it?
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, exactly.
Nick Caruso:
Well, moving with a lot of books is going to be fun.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right, yeah, I got this very, very heavy box. I feel bad for my movers.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, it's always the worst part. So, you don't use ... Have you ever used a Kindle or any sort of E-reader?
Dalal Elsheikh:
I think my little sister had a Kindle at some point when we were younger, but I do remember it having apps and everything. It had all the bells and whistles of an older iPad. Played a lot of Fruit Ninja on that thing.
Nick Caruso:
Interesting. Yeah, they had different types. The Paperwhite ... I have an older Paperwhite and I'm kind of like you, Tyler, I still use it, particularly for travel when I don't want to lug one or two books around with me, it's easier to do. I also have found myself leaning toward Kindle when I'm reading before bed to try to avoid blue light and all that because it's just ... The display is not going to screw up my circadian rhythm. Will you upgrade, Tyler? Is this something you're looking to do?
Tyler Duffy:
Probably not right now just because I feel like I've been sucked in to buying new products, new Kindles, or new iPads, so I'm trying to ... Every new iPad that comes out that I think is going to change my world and my relationship to this product and it's probably not. I may consider it eventually, but I'm probably not going to at the moment.
Nick Caruso:
Right. There are also many others of note. There's this Onyx, is another company that makes E-readers. I used this Remarkable, which I've spoken about, I think, briefly on here before, which is an E-writer, but there's a reading function.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh, very cool.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, it's cool. You can download PDFs, and mark them up, and all that kind of stuff. E-books too, but not the protected ones you can get in the Kindle Store, so you have to find public use books to read on it. Yeah, the consensus, I think, is sort of up in the air. A lot of people still like Kindles for the reasons we've suggested. Others are saying other technology is catching up so much and becoming so holistic that maybe the E-reader won't stick around forever, but who knows? I could see tucking one in my moving living room and going on a road trip in my public transportation level five car. Who knows?
Dalal Elsheikh:
It might already be built in.
Nick Caruso:
There you go. Is that something, one of your projects you can't tell us about, the E-reader user experience in cars?
Dalal Elsheikh:
A built-in E-reader, yeah. Yeah, it's a Kindle on wheel.
Nick Caruso:
Kindle with wheels, that's the new Amazon vehicle. All right, well fair enough. I'm intrigued by a new Kindle, I always like it. Love the E-reader, but I love a book too, so I'm torn. Also, Jeff Bezos, is an entire other discussion. Speaking of other discussions, let's move onto our final segment here. It is a story ... Not really a story, it's a discussion, I guess, we're going to have that's inspired by a survey conducted by Lululemon, the premier purveyor of active apparel. The survey studied over 20,000 people globally and the results shared by Lululemon indicate that about 80%, just over 80% of those people, hope that ... Let me see. "Casual clothing becomes more common in the workplace."
Nick Caruso:
They're referring to just being comfy and having gotten used to being comfy after working from home for so long because of the pandemic. Lululemon is of course using this survey to further justify lots of its clothing offerings, like hybrid performance dressy shirts, and pants, and stuff like that. So, Dalal I want to go to you with this one since I know from personal experience that you have an extraordinary sense of fashion and also because-
Dalal Elsheikh:
Oh, my gosh.
Nick Caruso:
Well, it's true. We met during car week where everyone's dressed to the nines, so maybe that's a bias.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, I was on best behavior.
Nick Caruso:
I'm not going to Tyler because he works from home and this is what I wear every day basically, a sweatshirt. So, my questions, will start with you, are ... I think you answered this earlier, but when you get to Detroit, are you going into an office and regardless, what's your take on the role of comfort in "professional attire?"
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, so originally I think October was supposed to be our go back to work month, but they've since pushed it back to January of 2022. I think they're probably going to push it back again, so I will continue working from home, but Design Studios, they're honestly pretty relaxed. We wear T-shirts and jeans. People aren't too interested in business casual or formal wear. I mean, I'll never show up to work in sweatpants, you know what I mean, but casual smart, I guess. So, yeah, I think if you want to spend $90 on a pair of pants, Lululemon is the way to go. I don't know that I am interested.
Nick Caruso:
That's fair. Well, you have until sometimes next spring to decide anyway.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Right.
Nick Caruso:
Tyler, what about you-
Dalal Elsheikh:
I think more concerned with snow boots.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, you definitely ... We have plenty of recommendations if you need some boot recommendations. Tyler, has working from home ... You've basically always worked from home as long as I've known you, so has your personal style been affected at all?
Tyler Duffy:
Yeah, so I've never worked from an office in my entire career, so I would say, no. I think I've always ... One of the things I've done to maintain my sanity is I always try to wear actual pants with a belt during the day.
Nick Caruso:
With a belt? Are you actually wearing a belt?
Tyler Duffy:
Yes, I'm wearing a pair of jeans with a belt. It just makes me feel like I've accomplished something and I'm going to go out even though I'm probably not going to go out and do that unless I had to pick my daughter up from school. Yeah, my work attire has not really changed much. I try to dress well every day or dress like an adult every day. I can't see myself wearing sweatpants in public. So, I try to maintain some sort of sanity because the rest of the world just found out working from home by yourself can be kind of a drag after a while. I don't foresee the future being people wearing sweatpants.
Tyler Duffy:
I think once people get in the office, I think the same competitive pressures are going to apply. Obviously you want to look ... Whatever the environment is, you're going to try to conform to it and look professional. I'm sure Lululemon would like the environment to be everybody wearing very expensive active wear, but I imagine there's going to be some bounce back when people are actually physically able to go to the office and want to not dress like they've been at their house for the last two years.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, Dalal, when you do actually get into the office, do you, even though it's casual, do you anticipate there being some sort of competition like Tyler was talking about, even in a fun way? Like, gosh, I got to look good now, it's happening again.
Dalal Elsheikh:
That's a good question. I'd say we have some pretty stylish folk in the office. I'd definitely try to look good, if and when I have to go in for a presentation or something, so maybe. That'll be kind of fun. I definitely have a manager who is pretty concerned with fashion. He actually used to be ... So, Anthony Prozzi, he used to be a men's fashion designer for Donna Karen.
Nick Caruso:
Oh, wow.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, so if I want to impress anyone it's definitely him.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, there you go. You set your standard there.
Dalal Elsheikh:
It's a high standard.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, exactly. A very good friend, actually a friend of ours, Tyler, Monica, is a designer, experiential designer and creative director. She was telling me that she was in some meetings the other day and finally just put on a T-shirt ... Our friend group has these T-shirts that we all have the same one of. She put that on inside out, so that she just had a really crappy stiff black T-shirt on. She said it was like she fit in perfectly after wearing all her fancy stuff every day for months. So, I guess it goes both ways. I don't know, yeah, I'm never wearing sweatpants to the office.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Yeah, same. Sweatpants, or leggings, or anything like that.
Nick Caruso:
I know leggings are-
Dalal Elsheikh:
They're doing some pretty cool slacks.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, yeah. I have some Lulu stuff that's acceptable in more professional settings. I tend to enjoy that hybrid work wear stuff where it's a dress shirt that has a little more give, or a little technical material for comfort, a little stretch, whatever. Going full on athleisure to work may not be in my future, despite what these 20,000 people say.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Mine either. Where do these 20,000 people work, I would love to know?
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, let's do a deep dive, get Lulu on the phone. Tyler, any closing statements for people? Do you have any advice for people who maybe have always worked from home and may be forced to go into an office? Can yo udo that thought experiment and give them some advice?
Tyler Duffy:
Yeah, I think ... As I alluded to with the pants, I think you have to maintain the pretense, when you're working from home, that you're an adult, and you're somebody who's going to be doing things, and you're going to be out in the world, and you should act like that otherwise ... Once you start letting things slide, things can go downhill pretty quickly as I'm sure a lot of people have experienced. I guess that would be my advice. Pretend like you're going to be meeting somebody or have something to do.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, it's like that classic children's book, if you give a new hire some joggers. Isn't that funny for every one? Good, well, let's wrap it up there. That's some good insights. Kindles, athleisure, and moving living rooms abound, and we're going to have to leave it there for this episode. So, listeners, thank you for tuning in today. If you want any more information, you're curious about anything we talked about today, check out the show notes, check out the post on the site, there's going to be a bunch of links, further reading and more references.
Nick Caruso:
If you have anything you want to share with us, comments, questions, suggestions, jokes, anything, hit us up on social media. The handle for Gear Patrol is gearpatrol, one word, or you can email me at podcast@gearpatrol.com and I will check every single letter, particularly for restaurant suggestions for Dalal and I will send them along to her. So, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast and send us a five star review if you've got a few extra minutes, keeps our proverbial lights on.
Nick Caruso:
So, Tyler, thank you for being here and a very, very special thank to you, Dalal. It's been great to pick your brain just a little bit and hopefully we'll be able to do it more in the future.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, it's been fun.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, good luck with the move.
Dalal Elsheikh:
Thank you, thank you.
Nick Caruso:
Everyone else, thanks again for tuning in and for Gear Patrol, I'm Nick Caruso. Until next time, take care.