Today we're talking about IKEA's new buy-back-for-store-credit program, which is being piloted in Pennsylvania as part of the company's "circular company" plan; Spotify's latest product and feature launches, including "Blend" and a partnership with Philips Hue lights; and the impending reality of autonomous taxis, heralded by Hyundai's Ioniq 5, due to hit streets in 2023.
IKEA's new buy-back-for-store-credit program, Spotify's latest product and feature launches, and the impending reality of autonomous taxis.
Episode Navigation:
2:35 – IKEA Buy Back Program Being Piloted in Pennsylvania
22:05 – Spotify Adds a Ton of New Features, Expanding its Market Dominance
32:30 – Hyundai Debuts its Ioniq 5 Robo-Taxi, Due Out in 2023
Featured and Related:
Nick Caruso:
This is The Gear Patrol Podcast for September 3rd, 2021. I'm Nick Caruso. Today, we are talking about Ikea's new buyback for store credit program, Spotify's latest product and feature launches, and the impending reality of autonomous taxis. I'm joined by deputy photography editor, Henry Philips. Hi, Henry.
Henry Philips:
Ahoy. Ahoy hoy.
Nick Caruso:
Ahoy, captain. And we've got back by popular demand, a GP Podcast favorite, the one, the only, Mr. Editor Will Price.
Will Price:
Hi, what's up. I would like to thank my mom for sending the email requesting me back on the podcast.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, popular demand, meaning just your very intimidating mother.
Will Price:
She knows what she wants.
Nick Caruso:
Just will not stop haranguing me to have you back on, so this is fulfillment here, fulfilling my obligation. Well, glad to have you both with us, of course. We were just talking about this before we started recording, but on a separate note to all of our listener neighbors in NYC, and friends down in the South and everywhere in between, wishing you the best as you all recover from Hurricane Ida. It's not often we get touched by a big storm like that, and even the tail end was really bad. So, thinking of everybody and good luck. You guys are all dried out by now, right, after our storm event?
Will Price:
As much as one can be, yeah. I was not anticipating such a severe, all the way up in New York City after having watched what it did when it made landfall, so it was scary, but safe enough.
Henry Philips:
Yeah. I think one of our plants launched off the patio, but otherwise everybody's hanging on.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. Well, my street was very wet last night, and the street adjacent to me was very flooded. And I walked out at 8:00 this morning to blue skies, sun, and zero water. I don't mean like a damp roadway, I mean it was bone dry. It was very eerie, very surreal. Anyway, thinking of everybody and hope for a swift recovery from all the damage. But let's get to the news, we're talking about products on this podcast. This is The Gear Patrol Podcast after all, product culture. And story number one, is about everyone's favorite flat pack apartment outfitter, Ikea. So, Ikea has this new buyback program, it's piloting just in part of Pennsylvania, a small town in Pennsylvania.
Will Price:
Can you name the town, please? Name the town.
Nick Caruso:
Oh, gosh, it's called...
Will Price:
You have it in front of you.
Nick Caruso:
Do I? I feel like I deleted it.
Will Price:
I got it, I got it. Conshohocken.
Nick Caruso:
Oh, there it is.
Will Price:
Sorry. I read that, and it's like a classic Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, just a bad-ass town name. Kind of reminds me of Sheboygan. Anyways, continue, continue.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, very Wyoming-y. I'm embarrassed, I actually had pushed that down in my notes because I was going to try to avoid it entirely, but that's what we in the business call karma. Okay, back to the details here. So Ikea is piloting this program, it's a buyback program wherein customers can return used items for store credit. And it's part of Ikea's overall initiative to be this much more sustainable company in the next so many years. Like we said, the program is live right now in a town called... Will?
Will Price:
Conshohocken.
Nick Caruso:
Thank you. The current process is sort of complex, and not without drawbacks, but we'll get to that in a second. But the basic gist is you fill out a form online, Ikea estimates your product's value, then you have to take the product to Ikea.,It has to be fully assembled. And then the product is inspected, resold in as-is condition, and you are issued store credit. The program is also limited to only some furniture items, notably those without upholstery, and a few other categories. Will, you are our home, drinks, design, all sort of things editor. You're kind of our go-to expert here, so I want to ask you, do you see this as being a reasonable option for folks who are looking to upgrade their apartment or home setup, or shuffle things around in their homes?
Will Price:
The first thing, this kind of called to a memory that I thought I had repressed into oblivion, to be honest with you. I don't know the type of youth you were, but for me, begging my parents for $10 or eventually when I had... Mowing lawns for like 20 bucks, and then going to GameStop, buying a game. And eventually, you want to return that game, because you're a minor that can't work, so you have to pull things together to get new games.
Nick Caruso:
You've got to hustle.
Will Price:
You'd think this game that you bought like two and a half months ago, it's still hot, all your friends are still talking about it, they all want it. And you try to return it, you paid whatever new games costed at the time, I don't remember, like 30, $40, and you return it and then they say, "Here's like $4.50 in store credit." I just wanted to bring that up as the first thing that came to mind, I do have-
Nick Caruso:
Harsh reality.
Will Price:
The harsh reality, of this is not going to be a great deal for you. With that said, I think that... So, a lot of people I saw when this went live, when the news started circulating, making fun of it like, "Oh, why would I do that? Why would I do this?" I think a lot of those people live in New York City, or places where they don't have cars and they can't bring fully assembled furniture to and from places. I think that there's a couple, there's maybe a few too many steps in the process for me to instantly think, "Okay, this is something I would engage with." Like I said, if I had a car and if I had access, or means to do that. For example, filling out forms before I go. There's all these steps about X person has to evaluate, and these things aren't included. There's all sorts of red tape around it.
Will Price:
But the idea that I might be moving and I have four pieces of Ikea furniture, or what have you, or home goods, and they don't necessarily fit my new space. But I would still like to, one, get rid of them and two, get some other Ikea stuff for that space, fundamentally I don't hate that. It's just a lot, or more than I would want that goes into it.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. I'm curious, I didn't see, unless I accidentally glossed over it, I didn't see quite how much people are expecting this store credit to get back. I assume it's got a lot to do, a lot to do with the condition of your furniture, meaning there's a big variation. But we'll see, it seems like a pretty good option if you want a little discount on some new stuff. It's not reasonable to expect a ton of money back from-
Will Price:
No, this is Ikea anyways, right? There are very few of these products that you bought for much money in the first place. So yeah, I like the thought, I like the fundamentals, but I do think it's going to be, there's maybe a few too many hangups for it to be something widely adopted. I tried to find numbers for how this program had fared in other countries where it's been live for a year, or two years or more. I think you might have mentioned at the top, the UK, Singapore, and I think there might be a few more. But it's difficult to find really firm or official numbers, so it's hard to really say.
Henry Philips:
Yeah, I'm curious how frequently things were brought back there. Because the more I think about it, it seems like a fairly limited subset of items that you would actually do this with. Expensive enough to be worth it, small enough that they fit assembled in the back of a car. But I like the idea, it seems like a nice thing. Will I ever use it? Maybe not, but even just the idea of bringing it and if it's not worth anything, then they'll... They had a funny line: "Dispose of it in the most responsible way the local infrastructure will allow."
Will Price:
That's right.
Henry Philips:
Which sounds much more nefarious.
Will Price:
That is some legal speak right there.
Nick Caruso:
I liked the phrase just before that, the full sentence is something like, "If the item doesn't qualify, the customer can either take it home." [crosstalk 00:09:27], so it was like, yeah, I'll just put my massive un-upholstered loveseat back in my trunk. Henry, you several weeks ago told us a story about returning a damaged couch, or something that was missing, a leg or something, and it was disposed of rather than returned. Can you recount that story, and then compare and contrast with this system?
Henry Philips:
It was a direct-to-consumer couch company, we'll let them remain nameless. And a single bolt was stripped, or a thread was stripped, so a bolt couldn't screw in where it needed to screw in. And I called them up, and they were tremendously nice about issuing a refund. And then they said, "Okay, we'll come pick the other one up," because I figured it's a $2,000 couch, they're going to do something with it. And the people that came by were the 1-800-GOT-JUNK people. So they came by, picked it up, threw it away, and I got a new couch, and that was that. So yeah, I'm all for things that feel a little bit more circular than that.
Will Price:
Yeah. It should be, the underpinning point of the conversation, is this kind of... Ikea is 1A or 1B depending on what data you're looking at, as far as furniture waste is concerned. This is a massive issue worldwide between Ikea, and the Wayfair brands, which I think they have like seven, maybe eight websites now. The way this super cheap furniture is made is pretty terrible for the environment, the rate at which we buy it and then throw away is pretty terrible. Everything about very affordable furniture is very destructive. So yeah, I don't think anyone's saying, "How dare they want to introduce some level of sustainability?" But it also, the reality is, yeah, it really does have to be convenient. Most people aren't going to go dramatically out of their way to save 50 bucks on a, whatever, $700 sectional or whatever from Ikea. I could be wrong about that.
Nick Caruso:
I could see this, if they do deem it successful enough, I could see it scaling to the point that it becomes popular enough that it may appeal to people in cities eventually. If they can figure out some way to do a pickup program, something like that, but that seems a ways off. It seems like the logistics of that would be prohibitive, but I don't know, maybe down the road. What about, Will, you were talking about essentially the environmental impact of Ikea and similar. Can you talk about whatever you know about Ikea's plans to be climate positive by 2030? Do you have insights there?
Will Price:
Yeah. Ikea has loads, and loads, and loads of side projects and whatnot, that they talk about this with. I think the core tenets are a lot of what you would expect, more sustainable material use. You can look at... They have some products that you can already buy, well, quite a few products I should say that you can already buy, that are made using, whether it's second use or recycled or upcycled, whatever the term may be, materials. It could be wrong actually, but I think... I might be misremembering. I think for a second that the Odger chair might be second use plastic. I could be wrong about that. But so yeah, a lot of it is-
Nick Caruso:
It's like a dining chair, right?
Will Price:
I think so. There's so many Ikea SKUs now, and I've looked at so many of them that the names are a great blur of umlauts and strange combinations of Ys and Is. But yeah, a lot of it comes down to that. And then this is the part I think is actually more interesting, to be honest, because I think this is the part that is, one, the least addressed, and then two, on a level that goes far beyond just Ikea, and it's like it's one of the key issues with furniture in general. And we've even done stories on the site, or in the magazine, about how all this stems from replica design culture and blah, blah, blah, and how destructive it can be. So, it's nice to see a company this large that's moving, I wouldn't say quickly, but at least moving in what seems to be the right direction.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, definitely kind of like, it reminds me of... People equate rather, this sort of furniture to disposable fashion, or fast fashion kind of stuff. And it is, to my point earlier about becoming popular in the city, it is interesting, anybody who lives in a metropolitan area and even suburbs many times, if you put something on the curb, it could be gone in a matter of minutes, literally minutes. So, that's one way to upcycle, but this makes it a little more formal. Did you guys see this-
Will Price:
This model endorses putting your stuff on the curb.
Nick Caruso:
We absolutely do, just put it on the curb. Kick it to the curb. This model, could this model apply to other products, or other spaces, other companies? What do you think, outside of the very approachable furniture kind of stuff?
Henry Philips:
Yeah. I love the idea of formalized buybacks, and then creating a used market around them.
Will Price:
[crosstalk 00:15:38] go ahead, sorry.
Henry Philips:
Apple has done tons and tons of buyback and recycling programs, to the point where it's almost part of the purchasing flow. You've got your iPhone or you've got your MacBook, and you want to get something for it but you definitely don't want to go through the hassle of Facebook Marketplace, or Craigslist or whatever. And so, you dump it back to them for a surprisingly good amount of store credit, and move on with your life. And I love that across any number of industries, and the more I think about the Ikea thing, I want this program, but for furniture that's designed to last a long time and be used in many, many different situations. So, as soon as Design Within Reach or someone fires it up, I'll be there.
Will Price:
Yeah. It's pretty common, Apple is what I thought of too, and then there's also a lot of luxury retailers and luxury companies will do things like this. Off the top of my head, there's a luxury e-commerce platform called Farfetched, that has a buyback program for accessories and whatnot. Of course, most of those items are higher value, so whatever, like a Louis Vuitton bag or something that they'll buy back. And then you receive X percentage of whatever they eventually sell it for, so it's almost like digital consignment.
Will Price:
And there's also, I think there's also a few steps being made in the direction that you kind of alluded to, basically better furniture than Ikea. I think FloorFound is one. I might be misremembering it.
Henry Philips:
That's right, yeah.
Will Price:
There's a couple of startups that are working, mostly actually with companies like Floyd or Burrow, or maybe BenchMade Modern. I don't remember all of them, but these new age direct consumer furniture companies that are also trying to build in some level of circularity? Am I combining singularity and circular? Anyways, you can get your products, someone will come and pick it up, you get credit or maybe cash, and then it's sold again at a discount. So yeah, I'm all for those things.
Will Price:
I think honestly for Ikea, a big part of it is... I was thinking about myself, if I were not living in Brooklyn and instead of living in Atlanta where I'm from, when you go to Ikea, it's sort of like an event in that case. You borrow your buddy's pickup truck or whatever, and you have like six things that you're going to get. And if you know the buyback program was there, and you have these pieces that are either sitting around and you don't want them, or whatever the case may be, I could certainly see myself being like, oh, maybe I can get a hundred bucks, and buy myself another dozen cutting boards that are going to warp with one rush through the wash.
Nick Caruso:
That's 12 meals. Yeah, that's a great point actually. In a city, it's such a hassle, because you need all sorts of logistics. And speaking of logistics, you're talking about the middleman process there does seem like a very startup-ripe environment. I could see a pickup, essentially for consignment services for furniture. Maybe we can start that.
Henry Philips:
That's like a real, you just got your driver's license, you live in Brooklyn, you're going to spend your entire summer driving from Murray Hill to the Red Hook Ikea and dropping off Malms.
Will Price:
It's going to be Malms all day.
Henry Philips:
It's going to be awesome, you're going to make like a hundred dollars a run, pay for gas and weed.
Will Price:
That sums it up.
Nick Caruso:
We're just lousy with Malms. Yeah, that does sum that up. And speaking of being green, we didn't even... That was a pun, you guys. I can't let them go, I'm sorry, I should. It's the Ted Lasso thing. Speaking of being green, we didn't even touch on other initiatives from Ikea, like they've been selling... What the heck? They've been selling energy, like renewable energy back to homes and consumers in Sweden, sucking it down from the sun and shipping it out.
Will Price:
Have you ever been to Sweden? I haven't verified this, to me it's very possible that Ikea is like a branch of the federal government there, in my head. I could see that being the case, and honestly, I don't know if I'd be that disturbed by that.
Nick Caruso:
It might be bigger than the federal government, or the national state house is blue and yellow, something like that.
Will Price:
Is Lego also Swedish, or no?
Henry Philips:
Denmark.
Will Price:
Denmark, sorry to Danes listening.
Nick Caruso:
Neighbors.
Henry Philips:
I think on the Swedish currency, there's the little Ikea assembly guy, he's on the five. I'm going to go for kroner, but it's a shot in the dark.
Will Price:
I think that's right. Quick fact check, quick fact check, quick fact check.
Nick Caruso:
We'll leave it up to commenters.
Will Price:
Ooh, I think a kroner might be Danish as well.
Henry Philips:
God dammit.
Will Price:
A Danish kroner, there you go.
Henry Philips:
Yeah. I think I'm going to launch some sort of American petition to merge them.
Nick Caruso:
This is off the rails. Well, that's good. I think we've cleared up our opinions there. It seems like a really good idea, and it remains to be seen if it will take off. Hopefully it does, because the larger effects are definitely desirable, particularly in contrast to landfills.
Will Price:
If you live in Prospect Lefferts Garden, Brooklyn, please stop breaking your Ikea furniture into a hundred pieces, and putting it next to the dumpster, because I hate you. And now you can return it, that's all.
Nick Caruso:
Okay, good endorsement. We'll put Will's address in the comments here, so you can all stop by and drop off your stuff. But let's for the moment, move on to story number two, we're talking Spotify. Spotify is adding a ton of features, or has actually, as of what is today? Yesterday, certainly by when this recording is live. The company continues to expand its dominance in the market with these product launches. First, there's this feature called Blend, which allows Spotify friends, you can add people on Spotify. You can share personalized playlists that are algorithmically curated with songs based on both of your tastes, both of the things that you listen to generally. And that went live on the 1st of September.
Nick Caruso:
There's also another thing that that was launched or released on the first Spotify announced that Delta airlines passengers will have access to a significant amount of its music and podcasts libraries, which is a quote, "Extension to Delta's arrangement with Spotify that started in 2019," unquote. And lastly, a collaboration between Spotify and Phillips Hue smart lights. This activates a feature that a lot of people use with their televisions, it's a feature that automatically syncs your color light bulbs from Hue, with Spotify Music. Meaning effects that'll interact with musical elements like tempo and volume, and genre. Henry, what's your take on Spotify? Is it the music streaming service to use, especially with these new features, and access, and all that?
Henry Philips:
I don't know how I managed to do it, but for a long, long time I had two concurrent memberships to Spotify and Apple Music.
Nick Caruso:
Wow.
Henry Philips:
Because I'm fiscally irresponsible.
Nick Caruso:
Like a dual passport.
Henry Philips:
Yeah, exactly, and just as rewarding. And I finally cut the, I got rid of Apple Music and I haven't looked back, man. Spotify is, I don't know, they all do the same thing. I don't think I'm a power user. I don't think I'm... No, no podcasts.
Nick Caruso:
What do you mean, no podcasts? Zero podcasts?
Will Price:
[crosstalk 00:24:36] I was going to say, do you use like a separate app?
Henry Philips:
I use the Apple Podcasts app, because I'm a multifaceted, complex human being. And it feels right, they made the podcast, let them have the podcast. Anyway, I don't have Spotify friends, I don't have the car thing.
Will Price:
I don't believe anyone has Spotify friends, dude.
Henry Philips:
Nick, do you have Spotify friends?
Will Price:
Don't even dare lie and say yes, you do not.
Nick Caruso:
No, I'm not lying. I have one. My girlfriend, so we can share.
Will Price:
Do you guys blend?
Nick Caruso:
Not yet, that's the next step in our relationship.
Will Price:
That's the big question.
Nick Caruso:
Really looking for... Yeah, I know. This is one of those romantic things where you would like ask someone out on the air, like, "Will you go to prom with me?"
Will Price:
You guys Spotify official? You know what this conversation, just for me reading about this, and then also I remember when Spotify first got... I mean, I say I remember like it was 20 years ago. I recall when Spotify first started adding podcasts, and it wasn't just music or whatever. I think it's just like, to me all these things are this natural evolution from it being this nifty little music streaming app, to being the obvious goliath that it has been for years now. But it's just like, now it is appearing on airplanes, my lights in my living room can do dances to whatever TV show or music I'm listening to, so on and so forth. It's the more physical, more multi-dimensional realization of just how enormous and mammoth this company has become. Nick, you passed over some data about it accounted for 30% of worldwide streaming, for the last X... I can't remember the timeframe.
Nick Caruso:
It was the beginning of 2020, they just released that data. It's a bigger market share than Apple, yeah.
Will Price:
So, I was thinking to myself, who is Spotify's competitors or whatever? In my head, I was just like I don't know, Netflix? These sort of other mammoth companies that are just vying for your precious time spent on their platform. So I don't know, it's amazing to me though.
Nick Caruso:
There's an interesting element to that, that you're kind of highlighting. Which is that big, dominant companies generally feel a little, or can feel a little gross, I guess. Because it's like you shovel all this money into them, there's really no way to get out of the ecosystem, whatever. But I've never thought of Spotify like that. Because A, music is just great, but also it's not expensive. What is it, 20 bucks a month, 10 bucks a month for-
Henry Philips:
You're just like the detached, Bourgeoisie.
Nick Caruso:
What could it be.
Henry Philips:
$50 a month.
Nick Caruso:
What could a banana costs, Michael? Whatever it is, it's for what you get objectively, pretty good price. You just think of it as this friendly little company, but it's massive, it's everywhere.
Henry Philips:
Yeah, I think that's partly what I like about it, and that's maybe why I resist all of the other features, like podcasts and Blend and syncing my lights to Joe Rogan. I like the idea that it's just the music thing.
Nick Caruso:
The sound of horse dewormer being slurped?
Will Price:
For some reason, my head immediately went to the comfort and how absolutely enormous and all powerful it is, we were talking about before this, how many streaming services I have just to watch for example, the English Premier League. I have paramount plus for the Champions League, I have Peacock for some games and I have NBCSN for some games. It's obscene, and this is just to follow one sports league. And then all of those things have all different TV shows and movies that I have to bounce around between to find whatever I want. Imagine if music was like that, it would be an absolute nightmare. It's like Prince is on Apple Music, but Spotify has Tame Impala, or whatever.
Henry Philips:
Yeah. There is really some scary alt-reality where all these music, record companies formed their own streaming service, and you get Universal Music Plus, and you have to subscribe to that to listen to, whoever it is. Music streaming feels awesome, Spotify feels cozy compared to the current state of streaming. You're right.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. It's that sort of internet meme-y Twittery meme-y thing, where it's like, "If only there were one system that combined all the shows and movies that you'd ever want to watch, that you could just turn on your TV and flick through them." Yeah, you don't want to go piecemeal, so yeah, delete the podcast if you're some sort of exec out there looking for ideas. Because we'll come for you, you're the Bourgeoisie here.
Henry Philips:
Well done.
Nick Caruso:
Thanks, just a shout out to my fellow countrymen.
Henry Philips:
Have you guys ever listened to the music on a plane, like the music channel?
Will Price:
No, absolutely not.
Henry Philips:
I find that so charming. I haven't done it, I would like to.
Nick Caruso:
Can I tell you-
Will Price:
Just sit there staring at the screen?
Nick Caruso:
I wasn't going to bring this up, because I feel like I should be a little more like, I should be a certain level of in the know for all the stuff we talk about, which I generally am. But when I was doing research for this, I was like, what is this Spotify and Delta... Because I, for the first time last week, or second time I guess, in the matter of a couple of weeks, flew on an airplane for the first time in many, many months. And I found myself thinking, gosh, it would be really great if I could just access Spotify on here. And I was flying Delta, and I had zero idea. I was just so... it was like opaque information to me, that even was close to existing. But I guess I kind of predicted it being launched, is my point.
Will Price:
Yeah, I think you actually invented it.
Nick Caruso:
In that moment.
Henry Philips:
[crosstalk 00:31:15], I believe. Yeah.
Nick Caruso:
I manifested. Anyway, Delta, I'd love more status if you like that shout out I just gave you. Cool. Well Spotify, it does seem like the one to go to, I've used it forever. I don't have, I've never used Apple Music just because I was already deeply entrenched with Spotify. And I don't have the kit to use things like Title and others. But you better believe I'm ready to make my Hue lights go nuts with, I don't know, Billy Joel's greatest hits.
Henry Philips:
There we go, I was wondering what song you were going to go with.
Nick Caruso:
I thought about lying, but I figured I'd just be honest. Oh man, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant, do you think there would be like three different... Never mind, doesn't matter.
Nick Caruso:
Speaking of three, we have a third story to get to, which is a great transition. And it's quick, the info is quick. Last up is that robo-taxis appear to be real and imminent, despite what I feel is this general nay-saying of their onset. So, this is Hyundai and an autonomous driving tech firm called Motional, which is a great name, they announced their joint venture which is an autonomous taxi. It's an all electric Ionic Five, which is a Honda Ionic everybody's familiar with, this is Ionic Five.
Nick Caruso:
And it will feature what is considered level four autonomy, and will be operating on the Lyft ride-sharing platform starting in 2023. Which is, quick math, 16 months away, something like that? I know, wild, right? I think I'll turn, yeah, I'll turn 39 that year. That sucks to do the math on. The car itself... Will, don't. The car itself is laden with external equipment, it kind of reminds me of a very road ready DeLorean from Back to the Future. It's got all the stuff on it, it's got all these sensors, cameras, radar, LIDAR, all this gadgetry straight off the assembly line. So Will, this goes to you for no other reason than I feel like you are going to comment on my age, how eager are you to hop into an unmanned taxi in a couple of years?
Will Price:
Yeah, you said it has what they call level four automation, is that what you call it?
Nick Caruso:
Autonomous, yeah.
Will Price:
Okay. In my head, the way that sounded was that Palpatine like, "Execute Order 66," but execute level four, something very I, Robot meets Star Wars.
Nick Caruso:
Nerd alert.
Will Price:
I don't know. I think this is interesting enough, if I keep reading about all this kind of stuff, and the fact that you've... That they rather, not you, Nick, you're not in charge of the Ionic Five robo-taxis.
Nick Caruso:
You don't know that.
Will Price:
But the fact that they have an actual, 16 months, that feels very oddly close. I don't really see... Listen, I hesitate to say I trust regulators to the fullest of their jobs, but if it's on the road and it's going to be the first... It's going to be the first one of these in the world, or just the United States? Like an automated vehicle for this purpose, a passenger or whatever?
Nick Caruso:
This is essentially the first major release of an autonomous taxi-ish sort of thing.
Will Price:
I would ride in it, yes. Almost just so I could have the satisfaction of saying I'm one of the first people who wrote in a self-driving vehicle.
Nick Caruso:
You can go out on a good note.
Will Price:
But here's my hesitation, and this is really simmering under this entire conversation for me. Have either of you spent the time to watch the show Upload?
Nick Caruso:
No.
Will Price:
I don't really know if it's a popular show, I don't know. We stumbled across it as you do when you're bickering about what you're going to watch one night. And the very first episode, and it's set in the near future, naturally, this guy gets in an automated, it's some rip-off Lyft branding, and the car slams into an automated garbage truck, and the dude loses the lower half of his body. So, when I'm thinking about this, that is sitting in the back of my mind. So, I would do it. I think it's sick, I've read tons and tons about automated trucking and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I think it's interesting. And honestly, as far as the car is concerned, I could give a shit. I think the self-driving bit is just absolutely fascinating.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah. I think it's worth doing very briefly, a rundown here. Level four autonomy is four out of five levels. Level five autonomy is a completely autonomous vehicle, meaning there is no steering wheel. You cannot, or do not control the car, you get into a pod and it takes you where you want to go. So level four, there are still controls, but it is completely autonomous, but a driver can take over. Which is the confusing thing to me here, I maybe I'm just too dense to soak this up from all the stuff we read about this. But if you're hailing an autonomous taxi and it's a level four, that means there must still be a driver.
Henry Philips:
No, this is the coolest part. Ready? You ready for the bomb?
Nick Caruso:
Oh, Henry [crosstalk 00:37:18].
Henry Philips:
I read way too much about this, I'm hype.
Nick Caruso:
Good, please. Correct me.
Henry Philips:
No, they're like... I don't know why, whenever I think of drones, I think of that Ethan Hawke movie where he's a drone pilot, and he gets all (beep) up in the head. Anyway, they're effectively drones. They have people with video game steering wheels and pedals, remotely.
Nick Caruso:
Shut up, serious?
Henry Philips:
Yeah, and they can take over the car if needed. If it reaches a point where it... They mentioned flooding a lot, but I guess that's a problematic portion.
Nick Caruso:
[inaudible 00:37:50].
Henry Philips:
Yeah, in Phoenix too. But anyway, yeah, so they're like a Good Kill scenario. Nobody, this is not a cultural touchstone. I should stop referencing Good Kill.
Nick Caruso:
I've never heard of that movie.
Will Price:
I love Ethan Hawke though.
Henry Philips:
It's an average movie, but it touches on some nice themes. Anyway-
Nick Caruso:
I watched Cosmic Sin for the second time last night.
Henry Philips:
What the hell is that?
Nick Caruso:
It's that Bruce Willis space movie that just came out on Netflix. Anyway, I interrupted you.
Henry Philips:
No, so anyway, they're drone controlled. So if needed, they take over remotely.
Will Price:
Will they get the world's best Need for Speed players to-
Henry Philips:
Yeah, I don't know.
Nick Caruso:
That is a movie. That's like Gamer, right?
Will Price:
Yeah, with Gerard Butler? No one is better at making every single product conversation, a movie conversation, than this group. That's incredible.
Nick Caruso:
That's great. I was in an elevator with Gerard Butler once. That was fun. It was great, it was overrun by terrorists and he rescued us. I felt very lucky. There's an interesting, in one of these articles that outlined the robo-taxi here, Ionic Five, one of the lines I shared with you guys was quote, "Writers will not be permitted to sit in the driver's seat," unquote. Which makes a lot more sense now that there isn't a person in there. But how fun would that be, you get in like, "Ooh," like you're in a fake, like Autopia at Disneyland or something, you're fake turning the steering wheel?
Will Price:
Yeah, you're at the stoplight or something, and you look over at some guy next to you, and you're like, "No hands." And the car takes off and just [crosstalk 00:39:47] chaos.
Henry Philips:
Do you guys ever... Complete tangent, and we'll get back to the Hyundai [crosstalk 00:39:53] at some point. But I've found myself completely in the habit if I'm driving down the highway and I see a Tesla, any of them, I have to look and see what the driver is doing. Because I feel like there's going to be that one chance where they're sleeping or something, and I need to witness. And also, I think I'm like-
Will Price:
That would be good content.
Henry Philips:
Trying to shame a little bit. But anyway, yeah, wouldn't it be fun if you were like, nobody can sit in the driver's seat unless you're 12 years old or younger, and then you can sit in the driver's seat.
Nick Caruso:
And you get wings?
Henry Philips:
I was going to say, put your dog in the driver's seat. Like the joke everybody's made at least once in their life, you know?
Nick Caruso:
So, we're kind of joking about it or referencing, Will, you referenced a fictional character being bisected by a garbage truck. But there are very real concerns here, right? The very obvious thing that have not just said explicitly, is that this seems like it's coming along very soon, because we have level two autonomy on the roads right now, this seems like a massive leap. And there have been a lot of problems, like Henry, you're alluding to, Teslas being put into autopilot and the drivers, whatever they are considered at that point, screwing up, or the cars maybe screwing up. What happens when you get that trolley scenario where the car has to decide what to run over? I can't quite wrap my head around this being possible in 16 months.
Henry Philips:
Yeah, it feels optimistic.
Will Price:
So, not to bring every conversation back to I, Robot. But in I, Robot, the movie really speaks to what the future will be, obviously. There's a character who's very much, she eventually becomes the protagonist, but at the beginning she's very much chafing with Will Smith. And Will Smith is like, he drives manual, and that's like a big, culturally it's a big deal. People when they get in the car with him, they're like, "Oh, why are you driving manual? That's so dangerous." And so, what I'm thinking when I'm looking at this now, obviously we're not even close to there, but just the way we're discussing it, it almost feels like, and I've done some reading on it, and I wouldn't say it's absolutely affirmed this belief, but I'm going to go with my take. It almost feels like the more of these self-driving cars on the road, the safer each individual is. So, you eliminate a lot of the human element. Sorry, I'm speaking purely in I, Robot lines now.
Nick Caruso:
How recently have you watched this?
Will Price:
I'm not even going to divulge that information, I've watched it a lot of times. It's a great movie.
Nick Caruso:
For a movie that doesn't have Gerard Butler in it, it's very good. So yeah, what you're talking about is sort of the dream that may be unattainable in terms of autonomous driving, is that cars... Mercedes has piloted a program and a couple others have as well, where their own cars can communicate with each other to warn of slippery roads ahead, or traffic jams, I guess. But the dream is, and the thing that's necessary for our truly autonomous cars to take over the roadways, is that cars have to be able to communicate with each other, so they can not crash into each other or smoothly merge, or just travel on the road at outrageous speed.
Henry Philips:
[crosstalk 00:43:52] or whatever, right?
Nick Caruso:
Yes, very much so. So, I guess I don't really have a point other than that doesn't exist now. So yeah, you're relying on, what did it say? 30 sensors, and some cameras and radar to keep you from bouncing off a garbage truck.
Will Price:
It seems way easier to start from scratch, and build some sort of city of the future.
Nick Caruso:
I think we can do it. We'll recycle furniture in our city of future.
Will Price:
The entire city of the future is just busted-ass Malm dressers, and incredibly complicated [inaudible 00:44:42].
Henry Philips:
Everybody has Spotify for free though, absolutely.
Nick Caruso:
For sure. Everybody is Spotify friends with each other. I just picture myself, in that scenario, I've pictured myself as we all rightfully should, as Will Smith. Because I picture I'm driving down the road in my old analog Jeep, and some kid who snuck into the driver's seat of an autonomous taxi is just flipping me off while he's fake steering.
Will Price:
That's perfect.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, I guess we'll see. But I don't know, we'll have to see if-
Will Price:
Before we go, we have to ask the question. I said I'd ride it, any reason you guys wouldn't write it?
Henry Philips:
Oh, I'd ride in one tomorrow, with the shittiest tech, so long as some robot and some Ethan Hawke in Las Vegas can drive me around? Yeah, hell yeah. Liberate the Uber drivers, man.
Nick Caruso:
I feel like I would do it, but I would have to take out a hefty insurance policy on myself, just so my family would be set. [crosstalk 00:45:53]. I'd be there on the lever, just waiting. No, I don't know. I guess I do know, I'm pretty dubious. I'm not sure I would trust it, maybe in 16 months I'll have a different opinion. But I'm not super eager to get into a completely, I mean a nearly completely driverless car, thinking about all the problems that are left over in this sector.
Henry Philips:
16 months feels comically, ambitious. I guess, but you start in cities far away and then you work in.
Will Price:
I think we're doing a podcast-
Nick Caruso:
I feel like you just NIMBY'd autonomous vehicles.
Henry Philips:
If there is an autonomous cab service, and put a pin in this, we'll circle back, touch base. If there is an autonomous cab service in New York City in 16 years, I will be amazed.
Nick Caruso:
Wow, fair. Put a pin in it, when Spotify dominates the pod landscape and we can all just tune in from our-
Will Price:
Joe Rogan is our 68th president. We've gone through a lot in the meantime.
Nick Caruso:
That's a lot of administrations in 16 years, but I'd believe it at this point. Okay. Well, we've solved that problem. You guys are, we know how you guys are expiring. And with any luck I'll be driving the garbage truck you slam into. So, on that very... Very dark, very dark, but Gerard Butler is there to come and pull you from the wreckage.
Henry Philips:
That was really funny, that was good.
Nick Caruso:
Well, okay. That's the news for this week. Thanks everybody for tuning in, hopefully you had half as much fun as we did. Any information about anything we just talked about, whether that's Ikea, Spotify, or the Hyundai robo-taxi of the future, near future, all that info is going to be in the show notes wherever you're listening to this, and certainly on the Gear Patrol website, if that's where you are or where you want to go to. You can hit us up on social, all our platforms, our handle is gearpatrol, it's one word. Or email, you can email us at podcast@gearpatrol.com. And I just want to say, very few people do, so take advantage of that. I want to read your emails. You can complain about anything we just said, or offer insights, tell us if you'd ride in the car, or if you'd rather be piloting from the little drone headquarters, in your underwear in your work from home situation. So Will and Henry, thanks for being here.
Henry Philips:
Absolutely. I was going to read off my Spotify username, and then I looked it up and it's incomprehensible. So, if you can find me on Spotify, please add me.
Will Price:
Blend, blend with Henry.
Henry Philips:
I need some friends.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, let's all blend. We're going to blend after this. Well, thanks for being here guys. And for Gear Patrol, I'm Nick Caruso. And until next time, take care.