In this episode, editor John Zientek joins to talk about the quintessential summer garment: shorts. As common as shorts are, there's still a lot to think about, like where they're appropriate to wear, and what length to buy. Plus, there are seemingly endless styles out there–from activewear to corduroy to cargo and back again. John talks through it all, and gives plenty of style advice that will apply not just to shorts but to your entire wardrobe. We end the conversation with three specific recommendations for your next shorts purchase.
As common as shorts are, there's still a lot to think about, like where they're appropriate to wear, and what length to buy.
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Nick Caruso:
This is the Gear Patrol podcast. In this episode, editor John Zientek joins to talk about the quintessential summer garment, shorts. As common as shorts are, there's still a lot to think about, like where they're appropriate to wear and what length to buy. And there are seemingly endless styles to consider too from active wear, to corduroy, to cargo and back again. John talks through it all and gives plenty of style advice that will apply not just to shorts, but to your entire wardrobe. And then we end the conversation with three specific recommendations for your next shorts purchase. Thanks for listening. Hope you like what you hear and if you do, I hope you'll subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review. I'm Nick Caruso and I'm glad you're here. Let's get started.
Nick Caruso:
John, why don't we just start with the main question? What do I need to know before I buy my next pair of shorts?
John Zientek:
Well, when you think about shorts, they're really a product that's built out of function. They're designed to keep you cool. And so everything that kind of falls under that is also kind of user based. What the length and material you pick depends on your lifestyle, the setting you want to wear them in, and then your own aesthetics, of course. So people tend to kind of like prescriptive takes on how you should wear shorts, or the perfect length short, or the perfect overall short. But really it's something that shouldn't be over-thought. Shorts are really just over complicated when it comes to buying and men's wear.
Nick Caruso:
And they don't need to be. I mean, not to make this a deeply philosophical conversation from a high level, but this is the, I kind of want to say problem, in a sort of a positive way. Like the problem with style is that we can recommend things all we want, but style is a truly subjective thing. So you kind of have to wear what you need and what you want. And we can apply that to shorts?
John Zientek:
Yeah, of course. But I mean, a lot of times people may not know what they need. And they also may have questions about what they want. That's why I think kind of in the US, there's such a reliance on style icons. People of an older generation talk of Steve McQueen, but he doesn't really relate to gen Z at all. And to millennials, people know of Steve McQueen, but they don't know really how he relates to the way they want to dress. And even the way he dresses or dressed, in this post-World war II, fifties, kind of utilitarian style isn't as relevant now. Steve McQueen certainly didn't wear a shorts.
John Zientek:
So what do you do when you don't necessarily have the Steve McQueen to look up to? Of course you can look around to other people and we may get to some short icons, or icons of the short pant later. But I think it's just good to kind of know what the field looks like first, because if you can educate yourself with kind of the shorts that are out there and what the kind of best use is for them, then you can be the most comfortable in a hot summer
Nick Caruso:
For sure. Which we are in the throws of now. It seems to be heat waves are kind of the new normal. So shorts are a good tool in your style arsenal. So speaking of style in general, as applied to shorts for Steve McQueen, et cetera, et cetera, like what is in right now? Are there specific styles that are kind of ... what's hot right now versus what a kind of short styles would be considered timeless, like we can always go to perhaps?
John Zientek:
Sure. I think that right now men's style specifically is. In a very interesting place style use to, I guess, cycle in trends. Every 20 years, things would pop up and then they'd die out and they pop up again. Certain things then would become kind of referential. So we'd look back to certain decades. So you could dress as someone would dress in the seventies, or you can reference the nineties in a look, or the fifties if you're doing Steve McQueen. So all of those things kind of were happening, but right now this the cycles have started to compound. And now we're seeing cycles that are happening basically at the same time. So we're seeing the nineties, and the seventies, and bits of the eighties, and bits of the sixties, and the fifties all coming together at once. Gen Z is going after the early aughts even. It's vintage man, it's 20 years old.
Nick Caruso:
20 years old, yeah I know.
John Zientek:
What is popular right now is everything. It's a weird thing because especially in shorts, which are so, a hot topic for guys. Short shorts are in, cutoff shorts are in, jean shorts are in, wild leopard print shorts are in, athletic shorts are in, Chino shorts are in. What you could have said three years ago was the standard short, which was a seven inch kind of Chino short, a seven inch inseam for those who are just tuning in. That's no longer relevant. Now, bigger, wider shorts, shorts that reach past the knee that kind of reference this late nineties skateboarder aesthetic are cool. And they're being produced by high fashion labels. Short three inch inseam shorts that would have been appropriate in the seventies or earlier are also being worn.
John Zientek:
And men are much more comfortable showing off their legs. You don't have to have legs like Milo Ventimiglia if you want to see a short short. And kind of the discussion about that in the media, well-known, handsome actor, Milo Ventimiglia was going to the gym, wearing the short with, dare I say, like a one and a half inch or two inch inseam.
Nick Caruso:
Almost like boy short underwear, almost.
John Zientek:
Yeah. And the media blew up about it, or the media who writes about that type of thing and, reached out for comment and he said, they're not too short. Maybe if you have, have quads and want to show them off like that, that's cool. But I think we're also in this age of body positivity, which is to say that you don't need to have the quads of a power lifter to wear shorter shorts.
John Zientek:
You don't need to be bronzed and tan. In fact, maybe that's a less healthy thing and that it's okay. So people are more comfortable in their own bodies. All these different styles are in. But that leads us to something that is perhaps like even more difficult, which are more options. If I were just to come on to this podcast and say, what you need right now is a five inch inseam short made out of a nice three by one woven cotton fabric, you'd be able to say, great. And our podcast would be over and 20 seconds. I'd give you some recommendations and we'd be done with it.
John Zientek:
But instead you kind of have this decision paralysis where you have every option available that has been produced since the beginning of shorts being worn. We're talking like woven hemp with drawstrings holding them shut as would have been made 300 years ago, to things that are modern day tech fabrics with four way stretch, quick drying, all sorts of features like that that would appeal to like a more active person looking for a more versatile short. But all of this to say, Nick, there are options and we can start to talk through kind of some of these categories and what they're appropriate for.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, for sure. That's a beautiful rundown, John, thank you. The idea that all of these styles are kind of swirling right now and there isn't sort of a single direction to go in is really interesting. I think that's a big question a lot of guys have, it's like, where can I wear shorts specifically? Can I wear them to the office? And like, what types are okay to sort of wear in different situations?
John Zientek:
This is the first question that you really have to ask yourself when you're saying I'm too hot, I want to wear shorts. So it's like, where are you going to wear them? There's the office or, we'll call it like the professional setting. There's a more kind of casual, relaxed setting. And then there's an active setting if you want to break it into these like three main categories. For the office, of course not a lot of offices have dress codes. If you're working in banks, you have dress codes. If you're working perhaps in food or other hospitality industries, you have dress codes in certain situations. But many other organizations have kind of done a way with the dress code though there's always this asterix of like the clothing you should wear should not distract from whatever the purpose of your job is.
John Zientek:
And so if your job is to help people figure out their home loans and you're wearing some shorts with bold print that like says some random expletive on it, I guess know your market. If you're going for a certain type of person, maybe that's appropriate, but generally, of course it's more of a best ... use your best judgment in that situation. But I think that still, kind of a classic pant material, whether that be a again, as we've talked about before, a Chino, could be a linen, could be a blend hemp cotton blend. Those are very popular right now in the two pillar lengths, which are seven inches for an inseam or five inches for an inseam. When we talk about inseams, it's the length from the inside of the crotch measured to the end of the short leg or pant leg.
John Zientek:
While everyone has different sized legs, you can kind of think of it this way. A seven inch inseam hits slightly above the knee, a five inch inseam hits, obviously a few inches higher than that. So you're showing off a little more of your quads, but it still would be considered appropriate in many settings. It's not a track short or something that you would wear to the beach. There are of course, more conservative lengths. And I mean, what is conservative really mean? It just means you're showing off less of your thigh. So there are 10 inch inseam shorts. Those would cover your knee. They start to be the type of thing that are parodied on middle-class fancy or stuff that middle-aged dads would wear with their white Kirkland shoes, or New Balances, or that type of style to go out on the weekend and mow the lawn.
John Zientek:
So if you're looking for something a little more fashionable, or a little more forward or of the moment, you tend towards the five inch inseam. If you would like to cover more skin, seven inch is fine, you can go as long as you want. But then as you start to cross that seven to 10 inch length that covers the knee, you start to then get into high fashion. So now you're making a statement the other direction. So if you think of shorts like a bell curve, Nick
Nick Caruso:
And I do in fact. I always have.
John Zientek:
That's the only way you could. The middle of the bell is around five to seven inches. So you have, we'll say six inches is the middle of the bell, five inches on one, seven on the other. And that's kind of where the majority of shorts will fall. Then as you get towards the lesser end, there's far fewer shorts and it's more of a statement. As you get to the longer end, we're not saying capris, but could be capri length. Again, you're definitely being more bold. You're choosing to make this statement. And people will notice that you are doing this. Office wear, go for five to seven inches. If you're looking to not make a big statement, a classic fabric, a Chino fabric, something like that. There are countless options available.
Nick Caruso:
So that's kind of the average. That thicker part of the bell curve is five to seven inches, conventional fabrics. Does that mean that as we go too much shorter and much longer lengths and the sort of like higher fashion, more noticeable stuff that materials also change? Patterns? What else is different about those extremes?
John Zientek:
I mean, you can get longer shorts in the same material and you can get these five to seven inch shorts in the same material as well. So you're, you're looking at multiple variables here. One is length. Length is something that you're playing with. Length religious has to do with your personal comfort and really the setting that you're in. If it's a professional setting, you're perhaps not wearing a track short. And you're-,
Nick Caruso:
Unless you're a professional runner, then you should consider them.
John Zientek:
We've got the Olympics coming up right now. Though we do have people wearing jeans while riding bikes for the Olympics. Jean shorts for runners, not really your go-to thing. When we're thinking about like, so we've got inseam length, that's a big thing to consider. The next thing to consider is material, which you kind of talked about. Many of the athletic or more adventure style shorts out there are made from materials that can stand up to use differently. They're lighter weight, maybe they're water repellent, things like this are nylon. They may be nylon cotton blends. They may be treated so that they repel water, maybe not.
John Zientek:
But things that fall into this category are like Patagonia baggies. This is a short that is kind of come into the men's wear canon as is like the go-to casual weekend short. They come in both five and seven inch lengths, go figure. they have an elastic waistband with a drawstring. Great. They've got pockets. They've got a mesh lining. Would you wear them to work? Well, maybe if you worked at REI. Maybe if you worked at a very casual office, that's kind of cool with t-shirts and that kind of look. But they're certainly more casual by their nature. They're designed to be used rock climbing, whitewater rafting, worn to the beach, that type of thing.
John Zientek:
And there's so many shorts that fall into this category. Not only from brands like Patagonia, but brands that are basically just referencing the style. That's what they're really trying to sell people, is a versatile product. They're trying to say you'll get more value from this purchase because you'll be able to wear the product more, or in more situations. And really that's how people ... the main way to figure out a value is cost per wear.
John Zientek:
I think in some cases it's appropriate. I think in many cases, it's not. So I'm going to play a little bit of the devil's advocate or the perhaps, give the counterpoint to this mega trend that we have in clothing right now. You don't really want to be in the boardroom wearing a pair of shorts and then go to the beach in the same pair of shorts. The idea is one that's attractive from a cost per wear standpoint. But in terms of like actually being active in a pair of shorts and then using them in another setting during the same day, I don't know. People sweat in the summertime, they sweat in the winter time. Hell, if you ride the subway in New York city, you know the smells. I used to ride from Harlem to Midtown in summer on a bicycle. And when I got to the office, I would change my clothing because I smelled like New York city in the summertime. And anyone who's from New York or been to New York in the summer knows that that's very fragrant in many ways.
Nick Caruso:
Olfactory playground, I would say.
John Zientek:
I'm a big proponent and will always vouch for, and recommend people to buy garments that are made for a single purpose that can then just be worn for that really well all the time. I don't suggest you wear your Patagonia baggies to your boardroom, and that's okay. You can have a pair of shorts that you wear to the office and a pair of shorts that you wear on the weekend. In fact, it's probably better if you do that. I think it's important to note that, we're talking about all these things and people are like, so what, it's cargo shorts. You're literally putting, you've got an extra pocket. You can put your wallet in there, or your cell phone, or some napkins while you're eating a hoagie.
Nick Caruso:
Okay.
John Zientek:
Well, I mean, you wouldn't sit down and eat a hoagie and have your napkins on the table. This is COVID era. You don't know who touched that table.
Nick Caruso:
That's a good point, actually. That's fair.
John Zientek:
You know that your pockets are COVID friendly. But all this to say, if it's something that you dig, and it helps you with your lifestyle, and you feel comfortable with it, it's probably a good thing to do. And it's probably been made.
Nick Caruso:
That's a good point, yeah. Well, this is all good. I really liked the idea that if it works for you, and it does what you need it to, follow it, it kind of circles all the way back to our original premise for a chunk of our earlier conversation that style is subjective. And if you match your subjectivity with your use case, you get what you should ... at that intersection is the thing that you should purchase, the thing you should wear. For me, it's not the sort of army canvas colored drawstring, waist, cargo shorts from American Eagle that I was wearing in 90 something, 98. But there's a lot to look into here.
Nick Caruso:
Let me sum it up. Let me see if I can get this right. You talk about the bell curve. So we sort of average out all of the different factors that we can think about with shorts. And if we're really just kind of coming up with a standard men's short, we've got a length of about five to seven inches. It might have a little bit of, let's say it's not going to be super baggy. It probably doesn't have a ton of extra features, but it might have a little bit of stretch. It might have a little bit of extra functionality. And where you wear those depends on your taste and your approach. Is that a fair summation of our shorts discussion thus far before we get into recommendations?
John Zientek:
Yeah, I think you summed it up well. It's all about where you're wearing them and how you like to live.
Nick Caruso:
Despite your point earlier about you don't have to go to a website or an authority to get recommendations on shorts, if you do want a starting point-
John Zientek:
We happen to be website and I am an authority on shorts and I be the one, you know, do as I say, not as I do, or do as I do not as I say. Check out my recommendations. We have an article, well we actually have a number of great articles on shorts, whether they're swim trunks or hybrid shorts that we touched on, to just our best shorts for men. We even have an ode to the ocean Pacific corduroy shorts, if you would like to learn a little bit more about those. But let's just kind of [crosstalk 00:24:25]. Yes. It was featured in our last magazine as well. But if you would just like some straight ahead, great short recommendations, I've got three of them for you. And they're featured in our best shorts guide and are basically the best all around pair of shorts, is by a New York brand called Alex Mill.
John Zientek:
Basically all of the folks at J Crew who jumped ship there, including [Mickey Drexler 00:25:03], big name in men's wear, are heading up this smaller brand. So think of it as J Crew re-imagined, which is to say American clothing classics. Great fits, decent prices. So these shorts have a zip fly. They're called the pull on button fly short. So I guess they have a button fly. But regardless they have a fly, they have also a drawstring and a little elastic in the waist. They have patch pockets, as opposed to your typical on seam Chino style pocket, which makes them a little more casual and a little less, we'll say like dad in the nineties style.
Nick Caruso:
Really utilitarian.
John Zientek:
There you go. They're made out of cotton, so you already know what they feel like, but they've got a little bit of stretch. And they're not as tailored to fit as you would have seen maybe five years ago, so they have a little bit of give to them. And they hit at that seven inches inseam mark that kind of said was on the upper end of where we're seeing so many shorts right now.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, pretty standard thing. And we call that our just get this pick. And again, when we talk about these three recommendations, like in most of our buying guides, we've got the just get this, which is if you just need a thing, get this one. The next two will be a step up, which is a higher price point, and something different than a more affordable pick. But these are really cool. They're 95 bucks. They're straightforward. My take is that these are safe in a not boring way. It's kind of like a lot of J Crew's clothing has been over the years or similar brands. They're good, good go-to stuff without being really drab.
John Zientek:
Exactly. If you want something that's going to look great with what you already have in your closet without looking like something that your mom would have helped you get at JC Penny 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, Mervyn's we're talking now, these are the things.
Nick Caruso:
Right on. So then if we're going to spend a little more money, in both financial terms, but also in terms of style, your step up pick kind of does reach the ends of the bell curve toward one, one ish. And I don't know, that doesn't really match up with one very perfectly, but it is a little outside that main middle category. Can you tell us about your step up pick?
John Zientek:
Sure. The step up, we're talking the upgrade shorts. And upgrade maybe is a way to say it's stepping kind of more into either a fashionable realm and also kind of a price point as well, kind of materials and construction. So we recommend a pair of pants or shorts from Capitol, which is a Japanese brand. And they're are wide leg leopard print short. They've got a nylon belt that's basically built into them that is kind of referencing Gramicci climbing pants, shorts that were made for climbing Yosemite and stuff like that.
John Zientek:
But as opposed to a normal print, these have a very, very bold leopard print. They're also longer, longer than that seven inch inseam, and wider. So they're something that has a lot more volume. It moves with you, it drapes and it's eye-catching. And it's also made very well. Capitol's known for owning their own factories in Okayama, Japan. They have control over how things are processed and their finishing is kind of second to none and respected both by streetwear nerds and by people in the denim and clothing community who really just love great manufacturing. So these are from a build quality, some of the best you can get, and from an aesthetic viewpoint, they're really pushing the boundaries.
Nick Caruso:
And then we have a third pick as usual. It is our smart spend, which is a more affordable pick, but still one of our top recommendations. Tell us a little bit about this guy here.
John Zientek:
Yeah. So we wanted to recommend something that obviously it's more affordable, but also is maybe for more casual settings. As we hit a more fashionable note and we hit maybe a more office friendly note as well, this smart spend recommendation comes from Australia and the surf brand Rhythm. So they're a linen short, that's a linen cotton blend, but you know, you get more texture and more breathability from the linen. Linen fabrics, whether they're blends are a hundred percent linen, are usually considered more casual because they wrinkle more and the wrinkle is part of the charm to it. So it's something that's a little purposefully disheveled. So you don't iron these shorts. They have a drawstring waist. They have this seven inch inseam with a little bit wider leg, referencing a Patagonia baggy again.
Nick Caruso:
Yeah, I was going to say.
John Zientek:
The price point comes in at $50, the Patagonia baggies $55. If you don't want to go full nylon with the baggy, this is a way to have something that is not as athletic focused while still keeping that, maybe the spirit or the intention behind it. A wider leg for more and more mobility, a drawstring waist for comfort, for ease of use, slightly different fabric that's that's still breathable and great for summertime.
Nick Caruso:
Yes. That lazy active ethos you were mentioning earlier. Also, I apologize everyone. I was remiss in not mentioning the price of the step-up pick, the second pick those, those bold leopard print shorts. They come in at 305, so that they really are an upgrade and something you'd have to consider from that perspective.
John Zientek:
If you are intending to wear these in your wardrobe, you will have put the thought into spending $305 on them. And chances are, you're not on the fence about them.
Nick Caruso:
Fair. It's a very fair point. And generally applicable to the entirety of the style world, fashion and style world. So John, I've taken up a lot of your time. We've talked about a lot of different stuff here. I'm glad we've got into to a little more philosophy of shorts and style and fashion. Hopefully everybody can fold all that into their decision-making. Of course, if you want more of the same from John and the team, gearpatrol.com has a ton of stuff. You can comment on those articles. You can also hit us up on social media. @gear patrol is our handle on all the different platforms, and you can hit us up there with questions, comments, and then of course you can email me at podcast@gearpatrol.com. Please consider also giving us a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice if you like that you hear. We really appreciate you listening. John, thanks so much for tuning in from The west coast today.
John Zientek:
It was my pleasure, Nick.
Nick Caruso:
And everybody, thank you again for listening. I'm Nick Caruso. And until next time, take care.