Gear Patrol Executive Editor and marathoner Jack Seemer educates Chief Content Officer Ben Bowers on a hot topic that's dominating conversations in the running world today: super shoes.
Welcome to Know Your Stuff, a podcast where we unbox trends in consumer culture, one topic at a time.
Today, our Executive Editor and marathoner Jack Seemer educates Chief Content Officer Ben Bowers on a hot topic that's dominating conversations in the running world today: supershoes.
During the conversation, they touch on what exactly makes a shoe "super," and how the high-tech shoes are changing the game for elite athletes and casual runners alike. They also take a step back to dig into the broader implications for the shoe industry and other sports in the future.
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Background Reading and Referenced Articles
The podcast is produced by our Director of Video and Platforms, Mykim Dang.
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Ben Bowers
Jack,I feel like it's a term that's been buzzing around for a long time, which is this term super shoe. I'd love to get your thoughts about what does that term mean? What exactly is a super shoe?
Jack Seemer
Most people would agree that the term super shoe refers to a running shoe that elevates somebody's performance beyond what they might be able to accomplish in everyday training.
For the most part. When people think of super shoes, they think of a running shoe with a carbon fiber plate. They think of a high stack height, specifically around that midsole, a super lightweight, energy efficient foam.
Ben Bowers
What do you mean by energy efficient for people who might not understand what that means in the context of running? What makes that foam special from a user's point of view?
Jack Seemer
Running fast requires a lot of energy, a foam that is highly efficient. Well, almost propel you forward, the more energy you put into it, the more it will give back. So, you know, in the example of the Vaporfly, Nike called it the 4 percent shoe when it first came out. And the whole spiel around the shoe is that it would not make you 4 percent faster, but it would make you 4 percent more efficient, which over the marathon distance would result in a drastic decrease in time. That shoe was designed around breaking the two hour barrier in the marathon. So yeah, you know, efficient means, you know, there's this common car analogy that gets kind of thrown around when people talk about super shoes and it's really The closest parallel would be your miles per gallon number and how efficient can you run at a certain speed?
Ben Bowers
I remember Nike having a whole kind of ground up stealth marketing campaign around, I guess it was that two hour marathon barrier and how the shoe, that was kind of what it was gunning for. Was that really the spark that started this kind of super shoe idea?
Jack Seemer
They started talking about it in 2016. And The Shoe may have come out, you know, 2017. There's an amazing Nat Geo documentary called Breaking 2 that chronicles their first attempt. Three long distance runners, Kipchoge was the headlining runner in that group. It wasn't an official race. It was kind of manufactured by Nike. And he did run at that time a world record pace. I think he finished something like two hours and 25 seconds.
So he didn't actually break the two hour barrier, but. It kind of proved that the shoes among other variables were a factor in running faster than anybody's ever run in history before. That really set off this arms race among all of the major shoe manufacturers to design and develop shoes for the marathon that could yield similar benefits.
Ben Bowers
I think everyone wants to understand this kind of fundamental question. Do super shoes actually work? And I think you can approach that from this like scientific question of. Do the shoes follow through on what they actually claim to do from an energy return perspective, or you can kind of look at it at a higher level and say, when people wear these shoes, do they run faster? I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about how, like, since that Nike kind of proof of concept, and, and as you mentioned, other companies got on board, the kind of evidence that people who obviously train a lot, but who wear these shoes, like, a lot of records have fallen since that point. And in part, the credit is kind of associated with the use of super shoes, right?
Jack Seemer
Yeah, I mean, the shoe companies would love to have you believe that the shoes were, were solely responsible. I've run in some form of super shoe for the last five, six years training for my marathons. I'm not running super fast, but they do feel different, you know, and I think that the feeling and the sensation of running in them is a big factor. Every athlete wants to do everything in their power to, like, set themselves up for the best performance possible. Your equipment and your shoes are definitely part of that. There's a lot of controversy around whether or not they're fair, whether or not people should run in them, whether they're even safe for, for people at a certain pace, like slower than what the pros are running.
Most people who are buying the shoes are, are running drastically slower than they were designed to go. And they might be heavier as well. You know, a lot of the elite runners, even on the male side, are 120 pounds, 130 pounds. I'm 6'2 weigh 180 pounds. I do think that the mental edge that a shoe can give you is notable. And it's worth talking about and worth giving credit. Even if it's placebo, that can go a long way in sports in convincing somebody that they have a certain pace in their legs.
Ben Bowers
It does strike me as pretty interesting that even if Nike maybe got this ball rolling and the marketing behind it, it does seem like the athletes themselves have bought into this as a competitive advantage. It's not just the running shoe companies pushing them. The most elite people in the sport, people who might have been sponsored by some brands were Wearing super shoes, if they're branded, the Kings and Queens of long distance running have fully embraced the fact that they offer an advantage regardless of where that advantage is coming from.
Jack Seemer
I remember those early days when the vapor fly was, it was really exclusive. It was hard to buy. Now you can just walk into your local running store and buy a super shoe off the shelf. But back in the 2017, 2018 era, when long distance running was gaining in popularity. Pros would wear them and black them out and I remember reading a lot of headlines and seeing on the forums where pros sponsored by different brands were wearing the Nike Vaporfly.
Ben Bowers
You've, you've mentioned running in them, obviously these were designs for a specific type of person originally, I think it's fascinating that you bring up the weight height differences of Kenyan gold medalists versus maybe the average American distance runner, but can they work for regular people, someone casually interested in distance running, is it It's worth giving them a shot and let's put the price point question aside for now. Just if money were no object.
Jack Seemer
They can definitely work for any runner, but it's important to remember what type of running you should be doing in them. I wouldn't recommend wearing a super shoe to go on your recovery jog down the block. Again, kind of talking about that energy return, a super shoe is only really relevant in how much you give it, right?
So running at a faster pace, putting more energy into your stride, a super shoe is going to respond and give you that extra bit of lift and springiness. If you run, let's say 10 minute miles on average and Eight minute pace is your fast pace. A super shoe can be helpful for you, but I would reserve it for those types of runs where you're going at eight minute pace, there's benefits to other types of shoes as well, an important part of this conversation, which is how super shoes kind of shaped the development of other types of shoes and you know, how are shoe manufacturers taking elements of a super shoe, like the stack height, the foam, the carbon plate. And embedding those in varying quantities into everyday trainers. So, which is definitely the, the big trend I think happening now. And I think we'll, we'll kind of carry running shoe design into the next, definitely the next year, but probably the next two or three years.
Ben Bowers
If I had the money and said, Hey, I'm training for marathon - I want to give super shoes a shot. I think you're alluding to the fact that. They should be part of a rotation. How have you integrated super shoes into your marathon training?
Jack Seemer
The price is a factor, I think, for any average consumer. It's easy to see why a brand like Nike or Adidas or Sockany would want to sell super shoes because the average super shoe probably costs 300 to 400 dollars. Adidas came out with a super shoe that costs 500 and it can only last a single race. The sweet spot that I found is to really incorporate super shoes into the training towards the end of a training cycle where you're training for the marathon. So you're getting ready for race day, you're about four to six weeks out. You want to break in a pair of shoes because you're probably buying a new pair for this race that you've been training for, for five or six months. And you know, you break it in, you get used to it, but you're also not wearing it out. So. You know, I, I would say, you know, some, some workouts on the track or on the road and a couple of long runs.
But you know, if you're doing all of your training in super shoes, then yeah, you're going to have to buy a lot of shoes to get to the start line.
Ben Bowers
Well, and there's some, I hesitate to use the word evidence because the science around all of this is still pretty new, but there's some indication that if you were to train or wear super shoes all the time, even if you had the money to blow. That the benefits kind of decrease with extended use or exposure.
Jack Seemer
Yeah, I've, I've heard that super shoes are so new and there's so much science coming out around them. We're so early into that, that I think it's easy to find any type of study to support your claim. I interviewed Cole Hawker who ran in Paris for the 1500 meters, won that race. He's not a marathoner, but he is running a significant amount and he is training in super shoes. super shoes can give you a mental edge. It can give you a confidence that you can push your pace. It can push your body past what you normally would see in training. Typically, most training plans will not have you train at your limit. You're reserving your peak performance for race day and trying to get all the conditions right for that. Theoretically, any race you should be going into where you're trying to set a PR, you're attempting to do something that you've never done before. You kind of need the confidence that something about your training or your gear will get you there. And if you're not confident that the super shoe is going to help you there, then what is, you know?
And I think that for me, I've definitely worn super shoes for big workouts where I was a little bit scared of what the. Pace was scared of what the distance was. I knew I could do it, but I also needed a little bit of extra confidence and being able to lean on your gear like that is it is helpful, especially as an amateur runner where you don't have coaches on the sidelines.
Ben Bowers
I can buy into the idea of At least they're being a placebo effect of having a secret weapon at your disposal. I actually haven't watched these movies very thoroughly, but it's like the Nos button in the Fast and the Furious franchise, right? Like extra gear waiting in the wings. You brought up Cole Hawker, that finish in Paris, by the way, probably one of my favorite event finishes in the entire games. That was so epic to watch, especially having the commentators give all that background around the, the other two guys who were presumed to be the top finalists. But you mentioned that he's not a marathoner and I did want to kind of, we've been talking a lot about marathoning and that's clearly where the shoes, that was the mountain, these things were originally developed to summit. But have you seen, or sort of what, what's. Where's running going in terms of these kinds of shoes being applied to different distances or different types of events?
Jack Seemer
Yeah, so there's also track, there's also the trail and you know I think the trail is where a lot of innovation and development is happening. So Hoka recently has come out with its new super shoe and Nike maybe two years ago came out with the ultra fly that was their first trail shoe with the super foam, their proprietary Zoom x foam, that kind of the secret sauce of their running shoes.
I think super shoe technology started on the road, but it's trickling into different types of running. It's also trickling into different sports. I mean, you know, I don't know what the benefit is on the basketball court, but Nike did bring Zoom x foam to its basketball shoe last Fall. A lot of it is maybe marketing, but again, it comes down to that mental edge, you know, do the athletes that are wearing the shoes feel like they have something propelling them to kind of reach greater heights?
I don't know how effective it is, but the runners that are winning UTMB, they're all wearing super shoes or allegedly super shoes. So can't ignore that fact.
Ben Bowers
Something that makes you feel like you can be faster and looks cool doesn't hurt. And I think probably something to be said about how the aesthetic of a super shoe was kind of seeping into the zeitgeist before they, that aesthetic also translated into a high performance product. But I would be curious, do you think they should be regulated? Do you think there's something fundamentally wrong about how this kind of technology is changing the sport of running in any way?
Jack Seemer
I want to be cautious and careful about sharing my own personal opinions. I think as objectively as I can be about it. The integrity of the sport is at stake with innovations and, and technology, but innovations are going to happen. You think about what runners used to run in 50, 60 years ago, it was leather shoes.
And innovations have been happening for a long time. It's just the rate of improvement that can be startling. The marathon world record set by Calvin Kipton, we're only two seconds per mile away from breaking two hours in an official course. Kuchoka has already broken two hours. The world record before super shoes came out was two or three, I think two or four, there has to be a gradual progression for spectators to accept technology. The truth is that every brand is designing super shoes. I think every sport probably has its own version of this argument. Like, is the gear too good?
Ben Bowers
I think it's naive to try to bring running back to a time where this technology didn't exist. The cats out of the bag, Pandora's open the box. There's no going back. Yeah. I would feel less comfortable with it. The state of the market had kind of remained what it was when like the Alphafly first came out, you know. Only a certain tier of the best runners were getting access to super shoes and other pros couldn't.
It really boiled down to sort of a proprietary technology that only a few professionals, not the average person, could get access to. I'd have less of a problem with it, but as you've alluded to, the market has caught up. And now, who's anyone playing in the running shoe space has a super shoe. Is that now table stakes? If you want to claim to be a running brand, do you have to have a super shoe now?
Jack Seemer
It's not just one super shoe, it's multiple super shoes. Even Nike has the Alpha Vaporfly. I write about this stuff for a living and it's hard to keep up with the, um, sheer quantity of super shoes coming to market. I think most spectators just want to see faster times, world records falling and people winning. Super shoes have helped fuel that, for sure.
Ben Bowers
Love to get your thoughts on sort of brand reputation as it relates to super shoes. Where do you think the term is going overall?
Jack Seemer
I think any serious running brand that's developing shoes for racing needs a super shoe.
I don't think any major brand is failing to put them out. Some brands cater more to everyday runners and joggers and people that just want to stay fit and have fun. You know, other brands definitely want to cater to the competitors, right? People that want to set PRs. So having a super shoe is the barrier to entry for brands to be taken seriously at the elite level.
Regarding the question of have we reached peak super, does the term mean anything anymore? I've wondered that there's definitely a dilution of what it is. If every shoe is super, then this is just what the standard is in terms of a shoe. We could see hypershoes on the horizon On even calls their foam like hyperfoam or references it as hyperfoam, not superfoam. So that might already be underway, but. Yeah, there are levels, and the more super shoes there are, the less special they're gonna become. Brands are gonna have to find new ways to innovate.